Gone and done it again.

Post your post 1970 technical queries here

Moderator: Moderators

ptjenkins65
Club Member 12
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:49 pm
Country of Residence: United Kingdom

Gone and done it again.

Postby ptjenkins65 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:51 am

Hello all. Whilst on a trip north to buy some wheels for my now beautifully running ( thanks to everyone who helped) r45, I bought from a shed a slumbering 1975 r60/6. Not been on the road since 2005 but had obviously been cared for up to then.
With a change of fluids, filters, plugs and battery, it starts, stops and feels good.
The two switch sets on both bars were both quite badly damaged so I have replaced them both with used parts from Motorworks.
Down side, and this is where I need help. Before and after swapping the switch sets over, the head lamp doesn't work on dipped or full beam. It will work on flash full beam.
You have helped me with electrics before and I could do with advice on how to run down the fault.
Also I am not sure how all the switches work with each other, can't seem to find an explanation.
Regards Pete

User avatar
george baker
Moderator/Club Member
Posts: 6328
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:51 am
Country of Residence: uk
Location: Manchester,UK

Re: Gone and done it again.

Postby george baker » Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:27 am

Hi
I guess you have a manual?

George
Member 21, R100R, K75 and a Hyosung 250 FOR SALE

ptjenkins65
Club Member 12
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:49 pm
Country of Residence: United Kingdom

Re: Gone and done it again.

Postby ptjenkins65 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:11 am

Hi George, yes I do.

User avatar
Galactic Greyhound
Moderator/Club Member
Posts: 7768
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:26 pm
Country of Residence: Scotland
Location: Dumfries

Re: Gone and done it again.

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:01 pm

Hi Pete,

Yes - looking at a /6 Wiring Diagram the Lighting circuit switches are indeed confusing.
You need to ensure that all the Lighting switches are set to the Main (Headlight) position i.e.
Piecing together a few old /6 Wiring Diagrams I think it works like the following:

a. The switch in the Headlight shell is the 'Ignition/Light Switch' - for the Headlight to work this MUST be in the 'Ignition' position.
There are 3-positions for this switch - Off/Park/Ignition.

b. There is a combined bar switch (not sure which side it's on - LHS?) - this combined switch comprises 'Light Main Switch', 'Headlight Switch' and Horn Switch as follows:

The 'Light Main Switch' has 3-positions - Off/Park/Main - for the Headlight to work this switch MUST be in the 'Main' position.

The 'Headlight Switch' has 3-positions - Flash/Low/High - for the Low/High Headlight to work this switch must be in the 'Low' or 'High' position. The 'Flash' position gets a +12v supply direct from the Battery and NOT from the Light Relay Make contact so the 'Flash' High Beam will work even if the Light Relay circuit has failed.

The 'Horn Switch' is just a simple non-locking push-button switch with 2-positions - Off/On (non-locking).


The other combined bar switch (not sure which side it's on - RHS?) - this combined switch comprises 'Kill Switch', 'Start Switch' and 'Turn Switch'. This combined bar switch has no control of the Lighting circuit other than the Indicators.

HEADLIGHT TESTING:
The Headlight High beam bulb is fed from the Connector Block terminal #56a [White wire] inside the Headlight shell.
Connector Block terminal #56a [White wire] is fed +12v from the Headlight switch (Flash/Low/High) terminal #56a when in High position.

TEST 1: If you TAP a fused (say 10 Amp or so) +12v onto this White wire on Connector Block terminal #56a the Headlight High bulb AND the idiot High light in the Instrument Cluster should light.

TEST 2: If you TAP a fused (say 10 Amp or so) +12v onto this White wire on Headlight switch (Flash/Low/High) terminal #56a the Headlight High bulb AND the idiot High light in the Instrument Cluster should light.

This proves the wiring from the Headlight High bulb to the Headlight Switch output terminal is OK.


The Headlight switch terminal #56 [Yellow/White] wire is fed +12v from the Light Relay Make Contact terminal #87 when the Light Relay is operated.

TEST 3: If you TAP a fused (say 10 Amp or so) +12v onto this Yellow/White wire on Headlight Relay terminal #87 with the Headlight Switch in the HIGH position then the Headlight High bulb AND the idiot High light in the Instrument Cluster should light.

TEST 4: If you TAP a fused (say 10 Amp or so) +12v onto this Yellow/White wire on Headlight Relay terminal #87 with the Headlight Switch in the LOW position then the Headlight Low bulb should light.

The above tests prove the Headlight High and Low bulb circuits and the Headlight High/Low switch are functioning OK.

TEST 5: If you short the Light relay terminal #87 (Yellow/White wire) to the Light Relay terminal #30 [Red wire] with the Headlight switch in the HIGH position then the Headlight High bulb and the High beam idiot light should light.

The above test proves that the +12v supply to the Light Relay Make Contacts is OK and bypasses the relay Make contacts for the Headlight.

LIGHT RELAY TESTING:
TEST 6: When the Light Switch (Off/Park/Main) is set to Main, there should be +12v applied to the Light Relay terminal #86 [Green/Violet wire] which should operate the relay. Check that the relay is heard/felt to operate and that +12v is sent out from the relay Make contact terminal #87 (Yellow/White wire) via the Headlight switch (High/Low) to light the Headlight bulb.

See how it goes! :smile:

LATER EDITS:
Later edits made re combined bar switches and functions.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - It works!

Jojje
Forum User
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 4:33 pm
Country of Residence: Finland
Location: Turku
Contact:

Re: Gone and done it again.

Postby Jojje » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:57 pm

When this happened to me, culprit was headlight relay.

ptjenkins65
Club Member 12
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:49 pm
Country of Residence: United Kingdom

Re: Gone and done it again.

Postby ptjenkins65 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:02 pm

Hi Ced, I was hoping you would reply. You might remember how knuckle headed I am when it comes to auto electrics.
When you say ": If you TAP a fused (say 10 Amp or so) +12v " do you mean attach a wire with an in line 10 amp fuse to the positive on the battery and then tap it where you say in each case.
Also the horn was working and is not now.
Pete

User avatar
Galactic Greyhound
Moderator/Club Member
Posts: 7768
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:26 pm
Country of Residence: Scotland
Location: Dumfries

Re: Gone and done it again.

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:05 am

Hi Pete,

Yes - you can attach a wire to the Battery Positive terminal as long as you have an inline fuse (10 Amp or so) on it close to the Battery terminal and use this wire to TAP +12v onto the necessary test point.

If there are any problems such as dropping the wire onto the bike or tapping a faulty/earthed point then the fuse will safely blow.

If your Horn is no longer working, then check that the top 8A ceramic fuse on the Connector Block inside the Headlamp is not blown.
This fuse is fed +12v from the Ignition/Light Switch [Green wire] when the switch is in the 'Ignition' position.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - It works!

User avatar
george baker
Moderator/Club Member
Posts: 6328
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:51 am
Country of Residence: uk
Location: Manchester,UK

Re: Gone and done it again.

Postby george baker » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:39 pm

Hi
Ced mentions a CERAMIC fues, One of my bikes had plastic fuses, one burn and shortened by a couple of mm,

I got 12 V on a meter with it in line at the devices it supplied (IIRC indicators, horn) but when a load was applied I got a high resistance joint and 0 volts at the device, that will learn me to used Ced's test lamp rather than a meter

When I pressed the horn button I get a strangled beep before siilience, BTW I was told of exactly the same fault last week on a DC fuse.

George
Member 21, R100R, K75 and a Hyosung 250 FOR SALE

User avatar
Galactic Greyhound
Moderator/Club Member
Posts: 7768
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:26 pm
Country of Residence: Scotland
Location: Dumfries

Re: Gone and done it again.

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:26 pm

Hi George,

Good point.........

One thing to consider if using plastic covered fuses rather than the original ceramic ones, especially when inside an Airhead headlamp packed with PVC wiring, is that should a short to earth develop then the fuse should blow as normal.

However, should a HIGH RESISTANCE develop due to a poor connection or corrosion on the metal ends/legs of the fuse, the fuse will NOT blow but the heat generated on the ends/legs could melt the plastic body and start a fire.

(You sometimes find this condition with the Mains 240V 13A plugs/sockets where a bad connection causes overheating and burn marks on the plastic body of the plug/socket which is hot to the touch.)

For this reason it is always advisable to use the correct type of fuses as per original specification e.g. '8 Amp Continuous Rating, Ceramic' and not just the fuse rating e.g. '8 Amp'.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - It works!

ptjenkins65
Club Member 12
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:49 pm
Country of Residence: United Kingdom

Re: Gone and done it again.

Postby ptjenkins65 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:56 pm

Hi Ced. I have attemptted to do most of your tests, tricky as there is not enough room to touch the wires when they are connected to the terminals. My answers are below

TEST 1: If you TAP a fused (say 10 Amp or so) +12v onto this White wire on Connector Block terminal #56a the Headlight High bulb AND the idiot High light in the Instrument Cluster should light.I tapped the spare terminal on 56a and the high beam flicked on as did the idiot light. If i pull the connection apart and touch the wire the bulb flicks on, if i tap the terminal the idiot light goes on

TEST 2: If you TAP a fused (say 10 Amp or so) +12v onto this White wire on Headlight switch (Flash/Low/High) terminal #56a the Headlight High bulb AND the idiot High light in the Instrument Cluster should light.I can't tap the wire whilst connected, what should i do?

This proves the wiring from the Headlight High bulb to the Headlight Switch output terminal is OK.


The Headlight switch terminal #56 [Yellow/White] wire is fed +12v from the Light Relay Make Contact terminal #87 when the Light Relay is operated.

TEST 3: If you TAP a fused (say 10 Amp or so) +12v onto this Yellow/White wire on Headlight Relay terminal #87 with the Headlight Switch in the HIGH position then the Headlight High bulb AND the idiot High light in the Instrument Cluster should light.Yes both work

TEST 4: If you TAP a fused (say 10 Amp or so) +12v onto this Yellow/White wire on Headlight Relay terminal #87 with the Headlight Switch in the LOW position then the Headlight Low bulb should light.Yes it works

The above tests prove the Headlight High and Low bulb circuits and the Headlight High/Low switch are functioning OK.

TEST 5: If you short the Light relay terminal #87 (Yellow/White wire) to the Light Relay terminal #30 [Red wire] with the Headlight switch in the HIGH position then the Headlight High bulb and the High beam idiot light should light.The head light beam flashes, but the idiot light does not come on

The above test proves that the +12v supply to the Light Relay Make Contacts is OK and bypasses the relay Make contacts for the Headlight.

LIGHT RELAY TESTING:
TEST 6: When the Light Switch (Off/Park/Main) is set to Main, there should be +12v applied to the Light Relay terminal #86 [Green/Violet wire] which should operate the relay. Check that the relay is heard/felt to operate and that +12v is sent out from the relay Make contact terminal #87 (Yellow/White wire) via the Headlight switch (High/Low) to light the Headlight bulb. Can you explain this a little more please

See how it goes! :smile:

I have put a new fuse in the top connector block but the horn still does not work

Thanks for the help.
Pete

User avatar
Galactic Greyhound
Moderator/Club Member
Posts: 7768
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:26 pm
Country of Residence: Scotland
Location: Dumfries

Re: Gone and done it again.

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:07 pm

Hi Pete,
TEST 5: If you short the Light relay terminal #87 (Yellow/White wire) to the Light Relay terminal #30 [Red wire] with the Headlight switch in the HIGH position then the Headlight High bulb and the High beam idiot light should light.

The head light beam flashes, but the idiot light does not come on

You may have had the Headlight Switch left in the 'Low' position so the High Beam idiot light would not illuminate.
If not, not to worry, may have been a glitch!


The above test proves that the +12v supply to the Light Relay Make Contacts is OK and bypasses the relay Make contacts for the Headlight.

The test results up to TEST 5 are satisfactory - well done! :smile:

LIGHT RELAY TESTING:
TEST 6: When the Light Switch (Off/Park/Main) is set to Main, there should be +12v applied to the Light Relay terminal #86 [Green/Violet wire] which should operate the relay. Check that the relay is heard/felt to operate and that +12v is sent out from the relay Make contact terminal #87 (Yellow/White wire) via the Headlight switch (High/Low) to light the Headlight bulb.

Can you explain this a little more please

Will do - see post below.

See how it goes!

I have put a new fuse in the top connector block but the horn still does not work

OK - don't worry about the horn - this will be looked at once the Headlight is working.

LIGHT RELAY TESTING:
TEST 6: When the Light Switch (Off/Park/Main) is set to 'Main', there should be +12v applied to the Light Relay terminal #86 [Green/Violet wire] which should operate the relay. Check that the relay is heard/felt to operate and that +12v is sent out from the relay Make contact terminal #87 (Yellow/White wire) via the Headlight switch (High/Low) to light the Headlight bulb.

To explain this test further:

1. The 'Light Main' Switch (Off/Park/Main) on the handlebar, should send +12v to the Light Relay coil terminal #86 [Green/Violet wire] when the switch is set to the 'Main' position AND WITH the 'Ignition/Light' Switch (Off/Park/Ignition) on the Headlamp Shell set to the 'Ignition' position.
If you flick the 'Light Main' Switch from 'Main' to 'Park' a few times you should hear/feel the Light Relay operating and the Headlight should also illuminate in sequence.

2. If you cannot hear/feel the Light Relay operating, then:

Take your +12v fused testing wire (one end connected to the Battery +12v terminal), and TAP (touch) the other end onto the Light Relay terminal #86 [Green/Violet wire] - the existing wiring can be left connected to the Light Relay terminals when testing.
(Terminal #86 is one end of the Light Relay operating coil.
The other end of the relay coil is terminal #85 [Brown wire] and this is connected to the main frame earth via the Connector Block terminal #31 [Brown wire].

When you TAP the +12v test wire onto the Light Relay terminal #86 [Green/Violet wire], the relay should be heard to operate (click).
You can tap the test wire on and off a few times be sure if the relay is operating or not - if it is, then each time you tap the wire to the terminal you should hear a distinct 'Click'.
If you hearing is poor like mine, then if you place your fingers on the body of the relay you should be able to 'feel' it operating.

[I suspect that the Light Relay may fail this test because either it is faulty or the wiring is faulty - see what happens! :smile: ]

3. If you can hear/feel the Light Relay operating, then that only indicates that the relay coil is moving the relay armature which should operate the two Make contacts in the relay - it does NOT mean however that one or both of the contacts are working as they could be burnt out or otherwise faulty.

To test if the contacts are actually working and connecting +12v to the Lighting circuit (Headlamp and Sidelights), we need to see if +12v is actually being sent to the Light Relay terminals #87 [Yellow/White wire to Headlight Switch] and to terminal #15 [Green wire to bottom 8 Amp Fuse for the Sidelight circuit] by the relay contacts.

To do this, you therefore need to CONNECT (clip on) your Test Lamp to each of the Light Relay terminals #87 and #15 in turn WHILE at the same time keeping the relay operated by TAPPING +12v onto the relay coil terminal #86 [Green/Violet wire].
The Test Lamp should be connected to the Battery Negative terminal (earth) and its probe lead should be clipped onto:
a. The Light Relay terminal #87 [Yellow/White wire (Headlight circuit)]
b. The Light Reay terminal #15 [Green wire (Sidelight circuit)]

With your Test Lamp clipped on to first (a) above, TAP your +12v Test Wire onto the Light Relay coil terminal #86 [Green/Violet wire] - the Test Lamp should see +12v and light FULLY.

Then, with your Test Lamp now clipped on to (b) above, TAP your +12v Test Wire onto the Light Relay coil terminal #86 [Green/Violet wire] - the Test Lamp should see +12v and light FULLY.

See how it goes! :smile:

PS: Good job in responding by copying the Tests and giving the results below each test in a different colour font - that makes life a lot easier! :smile:
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - It works!

ptjenkins65
Club Member 12
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:49 pm
Country of Residence: United Kingdom

Re: Gone and done it again.

Postby ptjenkins65 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:45 am

Hi Ced, I've done the tests you suggested and here are the results.

Take your +12v fused testing wire (one end connected to the Battery +12v terminal), and TAP (touch) the other end onto the Light Relay terminal #86 [Green/Violet wire] - the existing wiring can be left connected to the Light Relay terminals when testing.
(Terminal #86 is one end of the Light Relay operating coil.
The other end of the relay coil is terminal #85 [Brown wire] and this is connected to the main frame earth via the Connector Block terminal #31 [Brown wire].

When you TAP the +12v test wire onto the Light Relay terminal #86 [Green/Violet wire], the relay should be heard to operate (click).
You can tap the test wire on and off a few times be sure if the relay is operating or not - if it is, then each time you tap the wire to the terminal you should hear a distinct 'Click'.
If you hearing is poor like mine, then if you place your fingers on the body of the relay you should be able to 'feel' it operating.There is neither a noise or vibration from the relay

[I suspect that the Light Relay may fail this test because either it is faulty or the wiring is faulty - see what happens! :smile: ]

3. If you can hear/feel the Light Relay operating, then that only indicates that the relay coil is moving the relay armature which should operate the two Make contacts in the relay - it does NOT mean however that one or both of the contacts are working as they could be burnt out or otherwise faulty.

To test if the contacts are actually working and connecting +12v to the Lighting circuit (Headlamp and Sidelights), we need to see if +12v is actually being sent to the Light Relay terminals #87 [Yellow/White wire to Headlight Switch] and to terminal #15 [Green wire to bottom 8 Amp Fuse for the Sidelight circuit] by the relay contacts.

To do this, you therefore need to CONNECT (clip on) your Test Lamp to each of the Light Relay terminals #87 and #15 in turn WHILE at the same time keeping the relay operated by TAPPING +12v onto the relay coil terminal #86 [Green/Violet wire].
The Test Lamp should be connected to the Battery Negative terminal (earth) and its probe lead should be clipped onto:
a. The Light Relay terminal #87 [Yellow/White wire (Headlight circuit)]
b. The Light Reay terminal #15 [Green wire (Sidelight circuit)

With your Test Lamp clipped on to first (a) above, TAP your +12v Test Wire onto the Light Relay coil terminal #86 [Green/Violet wire] - the Test Lamp should see +12v and light FULLY. Lamp does not light

Then, with your Test Lamp now clipped on to (b) above, TAP your +12v Test Wire onto the Light Relay coil terminal #86 [Green/Violet wire] - the Test Lamp should see +12v and light FULLY.There is a grey wire attached to terminal 15. When i do touch the terminal with the wire disconnected, the light does not come on.I can't clip to it with all the wires in place, there is no room.
Thanks in advance. Pete


User avatar
Galactic Greyhound
Moderator/Club Member
Posts: 7768
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:26 pm
Country of Residence: Scotland
Location: Dumfries

Re: Gone and done it again.

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:45 am

Hi Pete,

The Light Relay is not working - could be the relay, its wiring or both.

Just a few more tests to check if the wiring to the Light Relay is OK or not:

Connect one lead of your Test Lamp to the Battery Positive terminal.

Probe with the other lead to the Battery Negative (earth) terminal - the Test Lamp should light FULLY.

(This just checks your Test Lamp is OK).

Test 1: Now, disconnect the Test Lamp lead from the Battery Negative terminal (leaving the other lead on the Battery Positive terminal) - this disconnected lead will be used to probe for an earth.

If you probe this lead to a clean metal part of the engine the Test Lamp should light FULLY indicating that point is earthed.

(This just double-checks your Test Lamp is set up OK).

Test 2. Now probe the Light Relay terminal #85 Brown wire, the Test Lamp should light FULLY indicating that wire is earthed.

Test 3: Now, change the Test Lamp lead on the Battery Positive terminal over to the Battery Negative (earth) terminal - this will allow you to probe for +12v. Touch the probe lead to the Battery Positive terminal to confirm this and the Test Lamp should light FULLY.

Test 4: Now, with the Ignition switch set to the 'Ignition' position and the Headlamp switch set to 'Main', touch the Test Lamp probe lead to the Light Relay terminal #86 Green/Violet wire - the Test Lamp should light FULLY indicating +12v is present on this wire.

See how it goes!
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - It works!

ptjenkins65
Club Member 12
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:49 pm
Country of Residence: United Kingdom

Re: Gone and done it again.

Postby ptjenkins65 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:41 pm

Hi Ced, answers below.Feels like we are getting closer.

Test 1: Now, disconnect the Test Lamp lead from the Battery Negative terminal (leaving the other lead on the Battery Positive terminal) - this disconnected lead will be used to probe for an earth.

If you probe this lead to a clean metal part of the engine the Test Lamp should light FULLY indicating that point is earthed.Yes

(This just double-checks your Test Lamp is set up OK).

Test 2. Now probe the Light Relay terminal #85 Brown wire, the Test Lamp should light FULLY indicating that wire is earthed.Yes

Test 3: Now, change the Test Lamp lead on the Battery Positive terminal over to the Battery Negative (earth) terminal - this will allow you to probe for +12v. Touch the probe lead to the Battery Positive terminal to confirm this and the Test Lamp should light FULLY. Yes

Test 4: Now, with the Ignition switch set to the 'Ignition' position and the Headlamp switch set to 'Main', touch the Test Lamp probe lead to the Light Relay terminal #86 Green/Violet wire - the Test Lamp should light FULLY indicating +12v is present on this wire.Yes
What now, a new relay?
Regards Pete

User avatar
Galactic Greyhound
Moderator/Club Member
Posts: 7768
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:26 pm
Country of Residence: Scotland
Location: Dumfries

Re: Gone and done it again.

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:37 pm

Hi Pete,

The conditions for operating the Light Relay are correct but the Light Relay is not operating.

This indicates a faulty relay.

Before buying a new/used Light Relay, you might want to inspect the old faulty relay to see if it can be fixed.
This can be done as follows:

1. Remove the Light Relay to a suitable work area with good lighting.

2. Remove the relay metal cover. This is likely done by folding back the metal casing where it joins the plastic base.

3. Examine the internals carefully for any debris, broken parts or signs of burning or corrosion.

4. The relay has a mechanical armature which operates the two make contacts.
If you press down on the top of the armature where it is attracted by magnetic attraction to the coil when the coil is energised, you should be able to observe the contacts closing (Make action).
When you release the armature it should spring back to leave the contacts open (Break action).

If the armature does not move, check there is not something stuck between it and the coil pole piece it is attracted to.

If the contacts are stuck (welded), force them apart and clean them up with a small file.

5. If you have a Multimeter, tphen set it to the Ohms resistance range say around 2000 Ohms (2 KOhm).
Measure the coil resistance from terminal #85 to terminal #86 - report this resistance.

If you don't have a Multimeter, then connect +12v to terminal #86.
Now connect one lead of your Test Lamp to +12v and probe the relay terminal #85 with the other lead.
The Test Lamp should light at LESS than full brightness if the coil is OK.

6. If you cannot measure any resistance then inspect the soldered terminal connections #85 and #86 carefully for 'dry' joints, corrosion and broken wires going to the coil winding.

7. When you operate the relay armature manually, you should see both of the contacts close.
Using your Multimeter on the Resistance (Ohms) range and keeping the relay contacts closed, you should get continuity from terminal #30 to terminal #87 and terminal #15.

If you don't have a Multimeter, then connect +12v onto relay terminal #30, operate the relay manually and see if the Test Lamp lights when you probe for +12v on relay terminals #87 and #15 when one lead of the Test Lamp is connected to the Battery Negative (earth) terminal.

See how it goes!
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - It works!

ptjenkins65
Club Member 12
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:49 pm
Country of Residence: United Kingdom

Re: Gone and done it again.

Postby ptjenkins65 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:54 pm

Hi Ced. Thank you for all your advice, i will probably buy a new relay, and take the old one apart when i have time to investigate further.
Any thoughts on the horn working and then not.
Regards Pete

User avatar
Galactic Greyhound
Moderator/Club Member
Posts: 7768
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:26 pm
Country of Residence: Scotland
Location: Dumfries

Re: Gone and done it again.

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:14 pm

Hi Ced. Thank you for all your advice, i will probably buy a new relay, and take the old one apart when i have time to investigate further.
Any thoughts on the horn working and then not.
Regards Pete

Hi Pete,

We can continue with the Horn diagnosis on this topic as it doesn't conflict with the title and you also raised this issue with the lighting problem.

The Horn circuit is quite simple and can easily be followed on the Haynes or similar diagram and faulted using your Test Lamp.

Testing the Horn Circuit:

Test 1. The Horn is connected to earth on one side and receives +12v via the Horn Switch on its other side to operate it.
A simple test of the Horn itself is just to TAP a FUSED +12v test lead onto the Horn +12v terminal [Brown/Black wire].
The Horn should sound clearly - it can draw around 5 Amps like a Headlamp does.
This proves that the Horn itself is working and that the fault is elsewhere.

Test 2: If the Horn is working OK in Test 1, then the next thing to check is the Horn +12v supply which is fed by the TOP 8 Amp fuse in the Connector Block inside the Headlamp.
The +12v feed to the Horn is on the DISTRIBUTION side of this fuse as indicated by the GREEN/BLACK wires connected to this side of the fuse.

Connect one side of your Test Lamp to the Battery Negative terminal and probe the Battery Positive terminal to check that the Test Lamp lights up fully.
With the Ignition/Light switch in the 'Ignition' position, probe the TOP Fuse Distribution side terminal (Green/Black wires) - the Test Lamp should light FULLY indicating that the fuse has not blown and there is +12v present.
Keep the Ignition On for the following testing.

Test 3: If Test 2 is OK, then a Green/Black wire goes from the fuse distribution to the Horn Button. The other side of the Horn button has a Brown/White wire which goes to the Headlamp Connector Block terminal #H which is near the bottom. The Horn +12v terminal is also connected to this terminal #H.

With your Test Lamp connected as in Test 2 above (to probe for +12v), operate the Horn button and , keeping it pressed, probe for +12v on the terminal #H - the Test Lamp should light FULLY (and the Horn should sound).

If there is no +12v on terminal #H indicated by the Test Lamp lighting fully, then the Horn button or the wiring to/from it is suspect.

Test 4. If the Horn button is suspect, then, if you can access the Green/Black and the Brown/White wires connected to it and short these wires together as close to the button as possible, the Horn should sound thus indicating a faulty Horn button.
If the button is faulty, try getting some Contact Cleaner or WD40 into it to clean any dirty contacts.

See how it goes! :smile:
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - It works!

ptjenkins65
Club Member 12
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:49 pm
Country of Residence: United Kingdom

Re: Gone and done it again.

Postby ptjenkins65 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:22 am

Hu Ced. I have tried most of the tests below.


Test 1. The Horn is connected to earth on one side and receives +12v via the Horn Switch on its other side to operate it.
A simple test of the Horn itself is just to TAP a FUSED +12v test lead onto the Horn +12v terminal [Brown/Black wire].
The Horn should sound clearly - it can draw around 5 Amps like a Headlamp does.
This proves that the Horn itself is working and that the fault is elsewhere. Horn does not work. The Drown Black wire is not directly cnnected to the Brown Black terminal marked LKK. There is a bridging wire with an in line choc block which has a did crossing the block. Pic to follow.

Test 2: If the Horn is working OK in Test 1, then the next thing to check is the Horn +12v supply which is fed by the TOP 8 Amp fuse in the Connector Block inside the Headlamp.
The +12v feed to the Horn is on the DISTRIBUTION side of this fuse as indicated by the GREEN/BLACK wires connected to this side of the fuse.

Connect one side of your Test Lamp to the Battery Negative terminal and probe the Battery Positive terminal to check that the Test Lamp lights up fully.
With the Ignition/Light switch in the 'Ignition' position, probe the TOP Fuse Distribution side terminal (Green/Black wires) - the Test Lamp should light FULLY indicating that the fuse has not blown and there is +12v present.
Keep the Ignition On for the following testing.Yes

Test 3: If Test 2 is OK, then a Green/Black wire goes from the fuse distribution to the Horn Button. The other side of the Horn button has a Brown/White wire which goes to the Headlamp Connector Block terminal #H which is near the bottom. The Horn +12v terminal is also connected to this terminal #H.

With your Test Lamp connected as in Test 2 above (to probe for +12v), operate the Horn button and , keeping it pressed, probe for +12v on the terminal #H - the Test Lamp should light FULLY (and the Horn should sound).No Sound

This is as far as i got as i thought the answers given would alter what comes next.
Regards Pete


If there is no +12v on terminal #H indicated by the Test Lamp lighting fully, then the Horn button or the wiring to/from it is suspect.

Test 4. If the Horn button is suspect, then, if you can access the Green/Black and the Brown/White wires connected to it and short these wires together as close to the button as possible, the Horn should sound thus indicating a faulty Horn button.
If the button is faulty, try getting some Contact Cleaner or WD40 into it to clean any dirty contacts.

User avatar
Galactic Greyhound
Moderator/Club Member
Posts: 7768
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:26 pm
Country of Residence: Scotland
Location: Dumfries

Re: Gone and done it again.

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:27 am

Hi Pete,

I am not sure if you are testing the Horn correctly as per Test 1 as the LKK terminal on the Headlamp Connector Block and has nothing to do with the Horn.
The Brown/Black Horn wire should go to the Connector Block terminal 'H'.

To re-affirm Test 1, look at the Horn itself - it will have one or two terminal connections.
If there is just one terminal then the body of the Horn is connected to earth by the mounting bolt/s. The earth is therefore the frame mounting point for the horn body i.e. there is no separate Horn earth terminal and the metal body of the Horn makes the earth connection when it is bolted to the frame .

Or, if there are two distinct Horn terminals, one is an earth terminal for the Horn with a Brown earth wire connected to it.

The other terminal with the Brown/Black wire is the +12v operating supply to the Horn.
If you TAP +12v onto this Horn terminal then the Horn should sound as long as it is bolted to the frame and so connected to earth or, if a two terminal horn, the earth terminal has the Brown earth wire connected to it.

See how it goes!
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - It works!

ptjenkins65
Club Member 12
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:49 pm
Country of Residence: United Kingdom

Re: Gone and done it again.

Postby ptjenkins65 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:02 am

Hi Ced, I have done a little more investigation.

The cables at the horn are Brown White and Green Black. When I remove brown white and touch theterminal on the horn with the fused +12v , the horn blows weakly and intermittently.

The brown white wire from the horn is connected to H terminal in the headlamp, as is the brown white wire from switch. I tested the continuity of the wire from horn to terminal and all is ok.
I had a look at the wiring diagram for a 60/7 which appears to be how the horn is wired The green black wire has continuity to green black wire on the top 8amp fuse which is new.
There is no brown wire from the switch to terminal 31 as in a 60/7.
Regards Pete

User avatar
Galactic Greyhound
Moderator/Club Member
Posts: 7768
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:26 pm
Country of Residence: Scotland
Location: Dumfries

Re: Gone and done it again.

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:22 am

Hi Pete,

OK, from your info - you have a 2-terminal horn with a Brown/White wire on one terminal and a Green/Black wire on the other terminal.

This would indicate that the Horn circuit uses a Battery (fused +12v) connected Horn and not an Earth connected Horn as shown in the Haynes /6 wiring diagram.

A Battery connected Horn is a later and a safer circuit to use as it minimises the risk of an electrical short.

I will look at the /7 Horn circuit you mention and try and figure out if this is what is done to your /6 Horn circuit.
The Haynes diagram may be wrong or there has been a factory update for your bike.

Meantime, disconnect the Brown/White wire from the Horn terminal.
This should leave a fused +12v on the Green/Black wire connected to the other Horn terminal.

If you then TAP an earth onto the disconnected terminal on the Horn the Horn should sound.
If it doesn't, check that the TOP fuse has not blown.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - It works!

User avatar
Galactic Greyhound
Moderator/Club Member
Posts: 7768
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:26 pm
Country of Residence: Scotland
Location: Dumfries

Re: Gone and done it again.

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:56 pm

Hi Pete,

Further to my last post I have had a look at the /6 and the /7 Wiring Diagrams.

If the Horn works when you apply an earth to its terminal connected to the Brown/White wire, then that confirms it is a Battery connected horn and NOT an earth connected as shown in the /6 Haynes Wiring Diagram.

In this case, the Horn switch (button) should have two wires connected to it:
a. A Brown/White wire going to the Connector Block 'H' terminal where it joins with the Brown/White wire going to the Horn.
b. A Brown wire going to the Connector Block '31' terminal where it joins other Brown wires connecting this terminal to the Frame Earth.

If you Horn was working previously and then suddenly stopped working, I would suspect that the +12v TOP fuse has blown, or:
a. The Horn Green/Black wire has come off the fuse Connector Block terminal '15'.
b. The Horn Button Brown earth wire has come off the Connector Block earth terminal '31'.

If the Horn works when TAPPING an earth to its 'earthy' terminal, then just keep applying a test earth along the Brown/White circuit until you reach the Horn Button - the Horn should sound each time you apply the earth.
i.e. Horn (earthy terminal - Connector Block 'H' terminal - Horn Button Brown/White wire (if you can connect to this).

If that is OK, then OPERATE the Horn Button and apply the test earth to the other Horn Button terminal (Brown wire if you can connect to this) and then the Connector Block terminal '31' - the Horn should sound each time you apply the earth.
i.e. Horn Button (Brown wire) - Connector Block terminal '31'.

If the Horn does not sound when you apply the test earth to the Brown wire side with the Button pressed, then the Horn Button is suspect.

If the Horn does not sound when you apply the test earth to the Connector Block terminal '31', then the Brown wire from the Horn Button to the Connector Block terminal '31' is suspect and may have got disconnected from the Connector Block terminal '31'.

TIP: If you need to probe a wire and there is no way to easily access that wire, a fine pin or needle can be inserted through the wire insulation to make contact with the inner conductor and the pin/needle used as a test point.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - It works!

ptjenkins65
Club Member 12
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:49 pm
Country of Residence: United Kingdom

Re: Gone and done it again.

Postby ptjenkins65 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:32 pm

Hi Ced. I will get to try your suggestions on the horn issue on Monday on. Just to let you know though, I have fitted a new relay and the lights work as they should now.
Thanks for all your help on that one. Another step closer to getting it back on the road.
Regards Pete

User avatar
Galactic Greyhound
Moderator/Club Member
Posts: 7768
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:26 pm
Country of Residence: Scotland
Location: Dumfries

Re: Gone and done it again.

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:25 pm

Hi Pete,

Glad the lights are now working!
Thanks for the update! :smile:
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - It works!

ptjenkins65
Club Member 12
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:49 pm
Country of Residence: United Kingdom

Re: Gone and done it again.

Postby ptjenkins65 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:09 am

Hi Ced. I think I have found the problem. When I purchased the bike both sets of switch gear were broken, the switches moved without clicking in to place and were fractured on the casings. I replaced them both with second hand units from Motorworks.
When I was disconnecting the old unit I did notice that the placement of the wire ends did not correspond with what the wiring diagram said they should be. I thought this was to do with the lights not working.
There is no brown wire coming from the horn button to terminal 31. Switch gear is from a 60/6 whilst the horn set up is from a 60/7.
Is there a way of utilising the switch gear as is with the current horn set up, or do I need to replace the horn and wiring?
Regards Pete


Return to “Airhead Q&A's”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: andyb, Jojje and 12 guests