Non starter

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ptjenkins65
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Non starter

Postby ptjenkins65 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:46 pm

Hi All. Sorry to regale you with more problems, but...
The wheels finally came back and i rebuilt the back end of the bike.
Feeling pleased with myself, I pressed the starter and whilst the engine turned over, it was not firing.
Today I had a chance to look closer. There is a very weak spark, whitey, yellow even after charging the battery, which is nearly new, to both plugs.
I removed the tank, disconnected the low power leads to the coils and cleaned and refitted. It nearly caught, but didn't.
What should I try next?
Regards Pete
1998 r850r
1979 r45
1974 r60/6
Still learning

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Galactic Greyhound
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Re: Non starter

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:01 pm

What bike?
Is it standard or modified?

The spark should ideally be blue indicating a high energy content - a white, yellow or red colour indicates a low energy spark.

Older points ignition systems might struggle to get a blue spark if not in peak condition.
The Condenser (Capacitor) across the points helps achieve a higher energy spark and should be replaced if old or suspect - always keep a spare Condenser for testing purposes as well as a good plug.

A weak spark may not be able to fire the air/fuel mixture when under compression in the combustion chamber.

If the plugs are damp they sometimes won't fire especially with a weak spark.
Take out both plugs and put them in the Oven for about 10 minutes to warm them up then immediately refit and try starting the bike.

Keep the battery well-charged up while diagnosing the problem.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

ptjenkins65
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Re: Non starter

Postby ptjenkins65 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:21 pm

Hi Ced. The bike is my 60/6. It was fitted with electronic ignition when I bought it. It must 15 years old at least.
The bike has been stored in a nice warm workshop for some time.
Pete

Hi Pete,

Do you know what type of electronic Ignition is fitted?

I would heat up the plugs as suggested previously to see if it will start - don't flatten the battery or flood the engine when cranking over - if it doesn't look like it's going to start then see below.

Basically, the electronic Ignition has two parts:
1. The Ignition Module unit.
2. The Ignition Trigger Unit.

The two existing HT coils are connected in series with +12v fed via the Ignition Switch on a Green/Blue wire to one terminal (marked + or 15) of the 'Live' side coil.
The other terminal (marked - or 1) of the 'Live' side coil should be connected by a Black wire to the 'Earthy' side coil terminal + or 15.
The other terminal (- or 1) of the 'Earthy' side coil would have gone to your points using a Black wire but will now go to the electronic Ignition Module 'coil' terminal.

You can test if the HT coils, plug leads, plug caps and plugs are working OK by disconnecting the wire on the 'Earthy' side coil terminal - or 1 (the wire now going to the Ignition Module).
If you then switch the Ignition On and TAP an earth On/Off a few times on the the 'Earthy' side coil terminal - or 1 (where you disconnected the Ignition Module wire), then you should see the plugs sparking.

If the spark is weak, then it could be due to the following:
1. A bad plug (the other plug should spark OK with a Blue spark).
2. A bad Plug Lead (the other plug should spark OK with a Blue spark).
3. A bad Plug Cap (the other plug should spark OK with a Blue spark - the plug cap should be of the 5 KOhm type for electronic ignition and not the 2 KOhm type for Points Ignition).
4. A bad coil (the other plug MAY spark OK with a Blue spark but it can also be affected by a fault in the first coil). If you have a spare GOOD coil you can swap it in to see if there is a problem with one of the coils. Note that the coils are 6V coils connected in series. You can also check the coils primary and secondary resistances to see if they are the same for each coil.

If the Coil Test is satisfactory with a decent spark showing on BOTH plugs, then either the Ignition Module and/or the Ignition Trigger may be at fault.

Test Ignition Module
1. To test the Ignition Module, reconnect it to the 'Earthy' side coil terminal - or 1.
2. Switch the Ignition On and simulate a Trigger Signal input into the Ignition module while checking for a spark at the plugs (see your proprietary Ignition System test/faulting procedure on how to do this).
3. If there is a satisfactory spark at the plugs then the Ignition Trigger is likely faulty.

Test Ignition Trigger
1. To test the Ignition Trigger see your proprietary Ignition System test/faulting procedure on how to do this.
1998 r850r
1979 r45
1974 r60/6
Still learning

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Rob Frankhamr
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Re: Non starter

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:43 pm

Hi,

What make of electronic ignition? also...

I forget, have you had this machine running before... if not, was there any hint of poor runningfrom previous keeper?

Rob
Robin Frankham
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Frankhams retirement home for elderly Boxers.

ptjenkins65
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Re: Non starter

Postby ptjenkins65 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:55 pm

Hi Rob. The bike was stored in a shed for 10 years before I bought it.
It's a Micro Digital, Branden Electronics system.
I had the carbs cleaned and it ran when I put them back on, not sure what's changed.
Pete
1998 r850r
1979 r45
1974 r60/6
Still learning

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Galactic Greyhound
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Re: Non starter

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:56 pm

Ha ha Pete,

We've been through this before for this bike haven't we! :grin:

If you can see a spark then it's got some chance of firing so don't get too hooked up on an ignition problem - it could be fuel i.e condensation water blocking a jet.
However, first warm those plugs in the oven as suggested and see how it goes!

See attached:

Click to Enlarge/Save As
1.
Boyer Bransden Ignition Pre 79.jpg

2. Kit 00086 Wiring Instructions, Type Mk3 - http://www.boyerbransden.com/pdf/KIT00086.pdf


3. Boyer Bransden Fault Finding: http://www.boyerbransden.com/faultfinding.html
Help: Email: help@boyerbransden.com
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Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

Roy Gavin
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Re: Non starter

Postby Roy Gavin » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:24 am

A spark should jump 8 mm easily and steadily if everything is OK - so if you can make up a dummy lead incorporating a 8 mm gap it is easy to check.
Gunson have a Flashtest which is just a pair of plastic dividers with contacts and connections half way up the legs, or a cut lead with the cut in a piece of clear plastic tube would do.
One problem Boyer might not tell you about is poor magnetism in the magnetic pick ups - dont know why/ how it happens but it can and is hard to find.

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Jaythro
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Re: Non starter

Postby Jaythro » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:32 am

Being honest before you engage in all sorts of diagnosis(advice is all good just its good to eliminate really simple things, before getting complicated)?? Just change the plug to any fresh one and see if you get a "blue / violet" spark If you do the plugs are fouled

Starting and idling any petrol / gasoline engine these days without getting them hot enough to burn the rubbish that is in todays version of petrol see deposits on the plug tips Have seen this sooooooo many times this last few years

Also make sure the battery is well charged and has the capacity to be able to spin the motor reasonably quickly
"Put your Ass on a motorcycle and ride with an attitude and the "Grim Reaper" will ride in your shadow!"

Islandmagee in case you're interested?

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Galactic Greyhound
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Re: Non starter

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:03 am

A spark should jump 8 mm easily and steadily if everything is OK - so if you can make up a dummy lead incorporating a 8 mm gap it is easy to check.
Gunson have a Flashtest which is just a pair of plastic dividers with contacts and connections half way up the legs, or a cut lead with the cut in a piece of clear plastic tube would do.
One problem Boyer might not tell you about is poor magnetism in the magnetic pick ups - dont know why/ how it happens but it can and is hard to find.
Hi Roy,

I just cut off the plug side (earth) electrode to make a Test Plug leaving just a smidge of a pointed section on the plug body.

This gives much the same gap size you mention and gives a good check on the condition of the Ignition system.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!


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