condor electrics

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fastdonkey
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condor electrics

Postby fastdonkey » Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:17 pm

Hi guys,

I am comfortable with spanners but not multi-meters or electrics in general. If anyone feels they can shed any light on this problem please keep any answers very simple !!

The bike is a 1952 condor 580i, the problem is a lack of sparks. At best intermittent but usually nothing now. Bike had been running fine.

Battery is fully charged, lights and horn(?) continue to work okay.
Ignition light comes on every time and is steady.
When the engine is kicked over once the i. light goes out but then comes back on immediately.
If I continue to kick over repetitively the light stays off but then comes back on steadily a few seconds after I have stopped kicking.
This process is consistent.

Regulator ??
Thanks for having a look, warner

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Re: condor electrics

Postby Mike D » Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:32 pm

Could that 'Ignition' light actually be the oil pressure light?

The regulator controls charging so has absolutely nothing to do during the ignition process.

If this bike uses points, then you could check if they are actually opening and closing.

Mike

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Re: condor electrics

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:57 pm

http://www.benvanhelden.nl/Condorclub/c ... story.html

The lack of sparks is likely due to ignition failure.

The ignition system will likely be the simple coil and breaker type although a magneto system is also possible.

If it is a coil and breaker system, you will have one or two HT coils.
If the battery is a 12v battery, then it might be expected that you have two 6v coils connected in series or, a single 12v coil with two HT outputs.

One side of the coil/s primary winding/s is connected to battery + usually via the Ignition switch.
The other side of the coil/s Primary is connected to the Contact Breaker (Points) which make and break an earth connection.

The Contact Breaker will have a Condensor connected across it to help create a bigger HT voltage when the points OPEN i.e. the earth is disconnected.

When the ignition is switched On and the points are CLOSED, current flows from the Battery + through the Ignition Switch, the Coil Primary winding/s and the points to earth (Battery -).

This current flowing in the Coil Primary wimding/s generates a large magnetic field around the Primary winding/s.

When the points OPEN, the current through the Coil Primary is cut off.
This causes the magnetic field to collapse which induces a very high voltage in the coil/s Secondary winding/s and a spark occurs at the spark plug the body of which is earthed.

DIAGNOSTICS (Coil ignition):
1. Check for Battery voltage (12v?) at one end of the Coil Primary when the Ignition is On.

2. Insert a piece of cardboard between the points to isolate them from their earth connection i.e. the points are held OPEN.

3. Check for Battery voltage at the other end of the Coil Primary winding/s.

4. Check for Battery voltage on the non-earthed points terminal.

5. TAP an earth on and off rapidly on the non-earthed points terminal while observing a spark plug for sparking - Note the plug body MUST be earthed!
(This simulates the points opening and closing)

6. Don't forget to remove the insulating cardboard from the points after testing!

See how it goes!
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
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Re: condor electrics

Postby fastdonkey » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:19 pm

Hi guys,

The first beer goes to Mike D. !! The flickering light is indeed to indicate oil pressure. I had rather assumed the light I had was ignition, and the no-show light (only 2 ) was oil, or lack of. Wrong way round. Have managed to get the proper ignition light working.
At least I now know I have some oil pressure.

Haven't cracked it yet, but at least I am not chasing THIS red herring.

I will ensure the battery is fully charged Ced then work through your checklist, hopefully be back with a worthwhile response.
It is a 6v dynamo system with a single coil, points appear to be in good condition.

Many thanks, Warner

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Re: condor electrics

Postby fastdonkey » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:58 pm

Ced,

This is a 6v dynamo single coil system.
Fully charged battery shows 6.7v
Points closed, capacitor side of coil shows 0.1v
other side shows 4.5v

Points open/cardboard inserted, capacitor side shows 5.9/6.0
other side 5.9/6.0

moving terminal of points shows 6.0
fixed terminal of points shows 0.0

No spark at plugs when points tapped on/off

Regards, Warner

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Re: condor electrics

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:14 pm

Ced,

1. This is a 6v dynamo single coil system.
OK - unlike an Alternator which produces AC voltage, the Dynamo produces DC voltage to Charge the Battery


2. Fully charged battery shows 6.7v
That looks OK!


3. Points closed, capacitor side of coil shows 0.1v
That looks OK as this side will be connected to earth with the points closed.
other side shows 4.5v
Now 4.5v looks a bit low as if there is a resistance in the supply circuit. I would have expected to see 6.0v at least. The 1.5v drop is 25% loss of Battery voltage which is significant.
Resistance can be caused by a worn/corroded Ignition Switch, terminal corrosion/loose, poor Battery connections, poor earth etc.
However, low voltage can also be caused by a bad Battery (high internal resistance) especially showing up when the Battery is under load and passing current as when the Ignition is switched on.

4. To determine if there is a Battery fault, first ensure that the Battery connections and the main engine/frame earth connection are clean to bright metal.
Then put your Voltmeter directly across the Battery terminals when the Ignition is switched On - this will show if the voltage loss is occurring inside the Battery or not - the Battery voltage should read at least 6.0 volts under load if the Battery is OK.



5. Points open/cardboard inserted, capacitor side shows 5.9/6.0
other side 5.9/6.0
That is OK - the voltage is higher because there is no current flowing to earth due to the points being held open so there is no drop in voltage because no current is flowing.

6. moving terminal of points shows 6.0
That is OK.
fixed terminal of points shows 0.
That is OK as it is connected to earth.

7. No spark at plugs when points tapped on/off
Just to be clear here, you should be tapping an earth rapidly On and Off on the Moving Terminal of the Points (with the cardboard still fitted between them) with the Ignition On.

If that is what you did, then there is an Ignition problem as the plug should have sparked.
The low voltage (4.5v) at the Coil Primary supply may or may not be the cause of no HT spark but this low voltage problem needs to get sorted out first as you will have lower energy supplied to the spark plugs resulting in red or yellow coloured low-energy sparks if you get any sparks at all.
Low energy sparks may not be able to ignite the compressed fuel/air mixture in the cylinder.
A high-energy spark should be blue in colour.

8. In case the Condensor has gone short-circuit, disconnect one end of the Condensor from the points and repeat Test #7 above to see if you get any spark at all.

9. Try using a new plug in case the plug is faulty.

ACTION: Report back on the results of Tests #4, #8 & #9
Regards,


Regards, Warner
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
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Re: condor electrics

Postby fastdonkey » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:46 pm

Hello Ced,

Test #4 With ignition on 6.0v across terminals.

#9 Both plugs are new

Test #7 repeated No spark @ either plug but 'new' ignition light flickers.

Test #8 Condensor disconnected, still no sparks.

Regards, Warner

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Re: condor electrics

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:48 pm

Hi Warner,

Following Test #4, the Battery appears to be OK if the points were CLOSED when you did the test - this puts an Ignition load on the Battery and draws current.

Test A1:
Can you measure this coil current with your multi-meter?
To do this, set your multi-meter to AMPS (Current) DC and the range to read around 5 Amps. Note that there may be a separate 20 Amp socket on your meter to read high currents and your red (+) meter lead would plug into this if this is the case. The other black (-) meter lead would plug into the common negative socket.

Put a piece of cardboard between the points to keep them open.
Connect the meter ACROSS the open points with the Red (+) lead on the MOVING contact.
Switch Ignition On.
Read the current flowing - expect 3 to 5 Amps.


Test A2:
Remove any cardboard from between the points.
Ensure that the points are CLOSED.
Switch Ignition On.
Measure the DC voltage across the battery again - it should be 6.0 v mimimum.
Measure the DC voltage on the HT Coil primary winding nearest to the Ignition Switch i.e. The coil 6v supply terminal from the Ignition Switch - it should be about 6.0 v.

Test A3:
If the voltage on the coil 6v supply terminal is still showing the previous 4.5 v and the coil current is between 3 and 5 Amps, then you need to find out where this 1.5 voltage drop is occurring.

To do this, work back from the coil supply terminal along the wiring towards the Ignition Switch measuring the voltage at each component along the way e.g. fuse, Kill Switch.

The ignition MUST be On and the points CLOSED when doing this test so that current is flowing in the Ignition circuit.

If you come to a point where you measure 6.0v instead of the 4.5v then you have straddled the fault - move back towards the coil until you get the 4.5v again and the voltage drop fault is between these two points.
It may be a high resistance connection in a fuse, Kill Switch, Ignition Switch or wiring.

You can use a pin pushed through the wiring insulation to make contact with the conductor wire inside if you suspect an internal broken/fractured wire.


Depending on your test results, it may be that the HT Coil is faulty.
If so, you may wish to look at sourcing a replacement 6v HT Coil at least for testing purposes.

The flickering Ignition Light on Test #7 is likely caused by this voltage drop to 4.5v each time you tap the earth wire on the open points to cause the coil current to flow.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
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Re: condor electrics

Postby fastdonkey » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:36 pm

Ced,

Sorry, but can you just clarify that the black lead simply goes to the fixed contact, or would any earth do on Test A1 ?

Many thanks, Warner

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Re: condor electrics

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:10 pm

Hi Warner,

For measuring the current flow in Test A1, the ammeter has to go in SERIES with the coil primary circuit.

This can be achieved by keeping the points OPEN with a piece of cardboard between them and connecting the ammeter across the points.
The red + meter lead goes to the MOVING points contact (from the coil primary) and the black - meter lead goes to the FIXED points contact (which is earth connected).

When the Ignition is switched On, current will flow from the Ignition Switch thru the coil primary winding to the points moving contact, thru the ammeter to the points fixed contact to earth (as the fixed contact is earthed).

The ammeter will indicate the amount of current flowing which should around 3 to 5 Amps.

Any earth would actually do BUT to make sure that your fixed points contact really IS earthed this measuring point has been chosen.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
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Re: condor electrics

Postby fastdonkey » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:05 pm

Hello Ced,

When doing Test A1 I get no reading,is there something else I can do an amps test on to check that I am doing this correctly.

Regards, Warner

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Re: condor electrics

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:50 pm

Hi Warner,
When doing Test A1 I get no reading,is there something else I can do an amps test on to check that I am doing this correctly.


In Test A1, you are using the earth which should be on the FIXED point contact.
If this earth is not present then you will not get a reading on your Ammeter.
To check that the problem is not due to a missing points earth, carry out Test A1 again but connect the Ammeter Negative (-) Black lead to the Battery negative (Earth) terminal instead of to the Points FIXED contact.
If you get an Ammeter reading, then the earth is missing from the points FIXED contact.


If there is still no current showing;
Put the Ammeter (multimeter in 'Amps' setting) in SERIES (i.e. daisychain) with the Battery earth lead and switch on the Ignition only you will see the current taken by the Ignition PROVIDED the points are CLOSED (remove any cardboard fitted between them).

To do this, disconnect the earth lead/s from the Battery Negative (-) terminal.
Connect the Ammeter black - lead to the Battery Negative (-) earth terminal and the Ammeter red + lead to the earth lead/s you disconnected.
This puts the Ammeter in Series with the battery earth connection/s.
The Ammeter should be set to read at its highest setting of 20 Amp if your meter has this range. If it doesn't have a 20 Amp setting then set to the highest Amp reading - you might expect to see around 5 Amps (5000 m/A) at Ignition On only so don't set the Ammeter to a low setting which can't handle this current.

Switch only the Ignition On - the Ammeter should read the current taken by the Ignition circuit which will be around 5 Amps with a 6v Battery providing the points are CLOSED.
If you get this, then OPEN the points with a wooden cocktail stick or similar and check that the Ignition current falls to zero. Opening the points should also cause a plug to spark.

If you don't see any Ignition current, then switch on the Headlight, this will draw current from the Battery into the Lighting circuit and you might expect to see something like 10 Amps being drawn from a 6V Battery for the Headlamp + Rear Lighting Circuit alone.
The Headlamp should be lit when you are measuring the current.

If you don't see any Lighting Circuit current and the headlamp is not lit then there is something not right with the Ammeter connection or the Ammeter itself.
An Ammeter is ALWAYS connected in SERIES with a circuit and NEVER across (Parallel connection) a component such as a Battery as the Ammeter acts like a short-circuit and there would be an awful bang!

If you suspect something is not right with the Ammeter or its connection, then remove the Ammeter and reconnect the Battery Earth lead/s.
Switch on the Headlight and it should light proving that the Ammeter or its connection is faulty.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
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Re: condor electrics

Postby fastdonkey » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:57 pm

Hi Ced,

My apologies that this is such a laborious process, thanks for sticking with it.

I suppose it helps to have the meter set up correctly.
Test 1 gave 3.4 amps.

Test 2 battery reading of 6.3, coil terminal now reads 5.8 (was 4.5, I suspect operator error!)

Regards, Warner

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Re: condor electrics

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:43 pm

Hi Ced,

My apologies that this is such a laborious process, thanks for sticking with it.

No problem!

I suppose it helps to have the meter set up correctly.
Test 1 gave 3.4 amps.

II take it that this is Test A1?
If so, then that looks a reasonable current of 3.4 Amps through the coil primary.


Test 2 battery reading of 6.3, coil terminal now reads 5.8 (was 4.5, I suspect operator error!)

I take it that this is Test A2?
If so, across Battery reading of 6.3v is good.
Coil terminal supply voltage of 5.8v would appear to indicate the Ignition was On and the points were closed resulting in a voltage drop of 0.5v - that also looks reasonable with a 6v system.

I am not sure what type of HT coil you have fitted - is it a single coil with twin HT outputs?

TEST B1: If so, can you set your multimeter to measure Resistance (Ohms) and, with the Ignition OFF and both plug leads disconnected, measure the Resistance between one plug lead to the other.

This is done by setting your Resistance scale to at least 20 KOhms then touch both of your meter leads (probes) together - the meter should show zero ohms indicating a short circuit which proves the meter is working.

Then, with one meter probe on the INSIDE connection of a plug cap (the bit that connects with the top of the plug), connect the other meter probe onto the INSIDE connection of the other plug cap.

Read off the Resistance showing on the meter - note that the reading depends on the Resistance Range that you have set e.g. if you get a reading of 18.2 and have the range set for 20K (or 20 KOhms) then the Resistance measured is 18.2 KOhms (K=1000).
This test measures the resistance of the coil Secondary winding + the HT leads + the Plug Cap resistance (likely 2 KOhms/cap).

See how it goes and report back with the result. :smile:


Regards, Warner
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
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Re: condor electrics

Postby fastdonkey » Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:09 pm

Hi Ced,

Coil has single outlet into distributor cap.
If it's of any value I tried the same test from inside plug cap to inside dis. cap, one side gave 5.4, the other 0.9
This was on the 20k scale

Thanks, Warner

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Re: condor electrics

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:47 pm

Ah... a Distributor!

TEST B2:

1. Connect a spark plug directly to the coil HT output.

To do this you may be able to use the existing HT lead from the coil HT terminal going to the Distributor rotor and re-connect this lead to the top connector on the spark plug.
You might have to rig up a bent paperclip or similar to make the HT connection to the spark plug top connector.

2. Next get a piece of wire and wrap one end around the threaded body of the spark plug. This will earth the plug body.

3. Connect the other end of this earth wire to either the Battery Negative (earth) terminal or to a good earth point on the engine/frame.
You can fit LARGE croc clips to both ends of this earthing wire and keep it to make future testing/connections easier if you wish.

4. Switch the Ignition On.

5. Crank over the engine and observe if the plug is sparking or not.
If the plug sparks with a Blue spark the HT Coil and the Points are working OK and the fault is likely in the Distributor.

6. If the plug does NOT spark when cranking, put a piece of cardboard between the points and, with the Ignition On and using an earthed wire, rapidly tap an earth on and off on the MOVING points contact (this will simulate the points opening and closing) - observe if a spark is present at the plug when doing this.

See how it goes and report back.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
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Re: condor electrics

Postby fastdonkey » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:13 pm

Hello Ced,

Kicking the engine over produces nothing.
Cardboard in and tap to earth produces a spark which looks quite decent.

Regards, Warner

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Re: condor electrics

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:53 pm

Hi Warner,
Kicking the engine over produces nothing.
Cardboard in and tap to earth produces a spark which looks quite decent.
I assume that is the result of the TEST B2/6 test?

That result would appear to indicate that the HT coil is working OK but that the points are not working properly.

The points connect one side of the HT coil to earth when they are closed and break this earth connection when they are open.

It looks like your points are either not opening or not closing properly when the engine is cranked or the fixed contact earth is missing.

TEST B3:
1. Leave the plug connected directly to the HT coil as in Test B2 but remove the cardboard from between the points.

2. Connect a Voltmeter across the points with the Positive (+) lead connected to the MOVING contact and the Negative lead connected to the FIXED contact.

3. Switch the Ignition On.

4. Observe the Voltmeter, if the points are open it should read around 6v, if the points are closed it will read 0v.

5. If necessary, rotate the engine by hand in the normal direction of rotation until the Voltmeter reads 6v (points open).

6. Now slowly rotate the engine in the normal direction of rotation by hand until the Voltmeter reads 0v.

7. Remove the Voltmeter from across the points.

While observing the spark plug, rapidly OPEN & CLOSE the points using a wooden cocktail stick - the plug should spark with a Blue spark each time the points are opened.

See how it goes - when reporting back always quote the TEST REF/Test number
e.g. TEST B3/5 - No 6v seen.
This makes it easier to follow the test results.

Better still, is to 'Quote' the post with the Test Instructions and respond in a BLUE font under each Test Ref/Test number as this allows the result of each test to be clearly seen without switching between posts.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
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Re: condor electrics

Postby fastdonkey » Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:01 pm

Re: condor electrics

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Postby Galactic Greyhound » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:53 pm

Hi Warner,


Kicking the engine over produces nothing.
Cardboard in and tap to earth produces a spark which looks quite decent.
I assume that is the result of the TEST B2/6 test?

That result would appear to indicate that the HT coil is working OK but that the points are not working properly.

The points connect one side of the HT coil to earth when they are closed and break this earth connection when they are open.

It looks like your points are either not opening or not closing properly when the engine is cranked or the fixed contact earth is missing.

TEST B3:
1. Leave the plug connected directly to the HT coil as in Test B2 but remove the cardboard from between the points.

2. Connect a Voltmeter across the points with the Positive (+) lead connected to the MOVING contact and the Negative lead connected to the FIXED contact.

3. Switch the Ignition On.

4. Observe the Voltmeter, if the points are open it should read around 6v, if the points are closed it will read 0v.

Points open, reading of 5.69
Points closed reads 0.03


5. If necessary, rotate the engine by hand in the normal direction of rotation until the Voltmeter reads 6v (points open).

6. Now slowly rotate the engine in the normal direction of rotation by hand until the Voltmeter reads 0v.

7. Remove the Voltmeter from across the points.

While observing the spark plug, rapidly OPEN & CLOSE the points using a wooden cocktail stick - the plug should spark with a Blue spark each time the points are opened.

Yes it does spark, but looking at the spark again I find it less than convincing-I feel it could be better.

See how it goes - when reporting back always quote the TEST REF/Test number
e.g. TEST B3/5 - No 6v seen.
This makes it easier to follow the test results.

Better still, is to 'Quote' the post with the Test Instructions and respond in a BLUE font under each Test Ref/Test number as this allows the result of each test to be clearly seen without switching between posts.
Ced.

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Re: condor electrics

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:40 pm

Hi Warner,

Summary so far:

S1. The plug sparks well when connected directly to the coil and when the points are insulated with a cardboard strip and an earth is rapidly tapped on and off on the points moving contact.

S2. The plug sparks but does not spark so well when the points are opened and closed by hand.

S3. The plug does not spark when the engine is cranked with the kick-starter.

Questions:
Q1: When the plug sparks with the rapid earth tapping on the points moving contact, does the plug spark regularly with the taps or only once?

Q2: When the engine is cranked by the kick-starter, can you see the points actually opening and closing?
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
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Re: condor electrics

Postby fastdonkey » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:08 am

Re: condor electrics

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Postby Galactic Greyhound » Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:40 pm

Hi Warner,

Summary so far:

S1. The plug sparks well when connected directly to the coil and when the points are insulated with a cardboard strip and an earth is rapidly tapped on and off on the points moving contact.

Still the case.

S2. The plug sparks but does not spark so well when the points are opened and closed by hand.

I find it less consistent, could I simply be doing this too slowly?

S3. The plug does not spark when the engine is cranked with the kick-starter.

The plug now sparks under these conditions. I did this test with the main garage lights off, sparks look okay doing this.

Questions:
Q1: When the plug sparks with the rapid earth tapping on the points moving contact, does the plug spark regularly with the taps or only once?

I also did this test with the main garage lights off. The plug would spark as fast as I could tap, and the spark looks decent under these
conditions and would seem to be consistent.

Q2: When the engine is cranked by the kick-starter, can you see the points actually opening and closing?

Yes, the points open and close as they should.

Many thanks, Warner

Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.

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Re: condor electrics

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:01 pm

Hi Warner,

From your last post, it would appear that the plug connected directly to the HT coil is now sparking in all the tests.

When you open/close the points by hand, you will likely not get as good a spark as that produced by the rapid tapping earth.
However, the plug should spark with a fat Blue spark each time the points are opened.

It is essential that a fat, blue spark is seen and you are not seeing a weak yellow or red spark which is unlikely to fire the mixture when under compression.

Before proceeding further, are the points in good condition? i.e. Are they flat and shiny on both contact surfaces or do they look burnt or have a pimple on one and a crater on the other?

If the points are not in good condition then they should be replaced or cleaned up with a file.
They should be set for the correct gap when fully open.

Once you are satisfied that the points are OK, look at the Distributor Cap on the bench and in good light.

It is a good idea to remove the spark plug leads from the cap BUT first make a note of what cylinder is connected to what connector on the cap.
This may be important as I don't know if your Condor uses the wasted spark ignition or not.
If it does NOT use wasted spark, then it is essential that the correct Distributor Cap plug connection is connected to the correct cylinder.
In this respect, the Rotor Arm should point to the plug lead connected to the cylinder which is coming up to Compression (firing stroke).
I have assumed that your Condor uses a 4-stroke engine.

At the HT input terminal on the cap (where the lead from the coil HT plugs into), on the inside of the cap below this terminal there should be a carbon brush on a spring.
This brush bears on top of the Rotor Arm.
Check that the carbon brush can put enough pressure on the rotor arm to make proper contact.

Examine the inside and outside of the cap.
Check that there are no cracks or black carbon tracks especially from the two terminals which connect to the spark plug leads or the coil HT input terminal.

Give the Distributor Cap a good clean with WD40 and check again for any cracks or signs of tracking to earth.

Now do the same for the Rotor Arm, checking it first before cleaning and again afterwards.

Clean up any black burn marks on the brass Distributor Cap and Rotor Arm terminals to leave them shiny.

Report back you've checked the above. :smile:

LATER EDIT:
I'm just a bit concerned that the spark you are seeing is too weak if you couldn't see it with the garage lights on.

Can you try another 6v HT Coil which will allow you to compare the sparks?
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - It works!

fastdonkey
Club Member 12
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 5:03 pm
Country of Residence: united kingdom

Re: condor electrics

Postby fastdonkey » Thu May 04, 2017 2:21 pm

Re: condor electrics

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Postby Galactic Greyhound » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:01 pm

Hi Warner,

From your last post, it would appear that the plug connected directly to the HT coil is now sparking in all the tests.

When you open/close the points by hand, you will likely not get as good a spark as that produced by the rapid tapping earth.
However, the plug should spark with a fat Blue spark each time the points are opened.

It is essential that a fat, blue spark is seen and you are not seeing a weak yellow or red spark which is unlikely to fire the mixture when under compression.

Before proceeding further, are the points in good condition? i.e. Are they flat and shiny on both contact surfaces or do they look burnt or have a pimple on one and a crater on the other?

No burning or craters

If the points are not in good condition then they should be replaced or cleaned up with a file.
They should be set for the correct gap when fully open.

Gap set

Once you are satisfied that the points are OK, look at the Distributor Cap on the bench and in good light.

It is a good idea to remove the spark plug leads from the cap BUT first make a note of what cylinder is connected to what connector on the cap.
This may be important as I don't know if your Condor uses the wasted spark ignition or not.
If it does NOT use wasted spark, then it is essential that the correct Distributor Cap plug connection is connected to the correct cylinder.
In this respect, the Rotor Arm should point to the plug lead connected to the cylinder which is coming up to Compression (firing stroke).
I have assumed that your Condor uses a 4-stroke engine.

No wasted sparks. Have marked Dis. cap connections. Yes, 4-stroke side valve unit

At the HT input terminal on the cap (where the lead from the coil HT plugs into), on the inside of the cap below this terminal there should be a carbon brush on a spring.
This brush bears on top of the Rotor Arm.
Check that the carbon brush can put enough pressure on the rotor arm to make proper contact.

Carbon brush makes good contact

Examine the inside and outside of the cap.
Check that there are no cracks or black carbon tracks especially from the two terminals which connect to the spark plug leads or the coil HT input terminal.

Give the Distributor Cap a good clean with WD40 and check again for any cracks or signs of tracking to earth.

Cleaned and checked. No cracks or signs of pitting/eroding on pins inside cap

Now do the same for the Rotor Arm, checking it first before cleaning and again afterwards.

Cleaned and checked, in good condition

Clean up any black burn marks on the brass Distributor Cap and Rotor Arm terminals to leave them shiny.

All clean and shiny

LATER EDIT:
I'm just a bit concerned that the spark you are seeing is too weak if you couldn't see it with the garage lights on.

It's not so much that I can't see it I am just not sure how good a spark I should be looking for from such an old 6v system


Can you try another 6v HT Coil which will allow you to compare the sparks?

Part of the delay in getting back to you was that I acquired a new 6v Lucas coil so that I had a comparison. I was rather surprised that the
difference between new and old wasn't greater. I guess the spark from the new coil was a touch 'bluer' but we are not talking about a big difference here. If the plugs were sparking as the one currently is which is hooked up to the old coil I would be very surprised if the engine would not fire. The only way I can get an 'OEM' replacement is to send to Switzerland. May do that eventually anyway, so that I have one. We'll see how this goes.

[/color]Many thanks, Warner
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - It works!


Tophttp://www.bmbikes.org.uk/Forum/posting.php?mo ... 24983#It's not so much that I can't see the spark, I am just not sure how much spark I

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Galactic Greyhound
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Location: Dumfries

Re: condor electrics

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Thu May 04, 2017 6:42 pm

Hi Warner,

Well that seems to have gone well!

It was a good move to acquire a modern 6v HT coil as it allows you to compare the spark quality between old and new coils.

Your observation of the new Lucas coil spark being slightly more blue is likely due to a more efficient modern coil.

However, it would appear to indicate that your original HT coil is functioning OK.

I would fit the new coil and keep the old as spare unless you want to keep the bike original.

CURRENT STATUS:

It would appear that you are now getting good blue sparks when both tapping an earth on/off with the points insulated and also when opening and closing the points by hand?

TEST C1:
1. What to do now is see if you can get fat blue sparks when kick-starting using the new coil (with the Distributor still not connected and just using a spark plug connected to the coil HT output. The HT coil body and the plug body should be earthed for this test.)

2. If the above test is satisfactory, reconnect the new HT coil to the Distributor and both spark plugs (not inserted into cylinders).
Ensure that the HT coil body and the spark plug bodies are earthed.
I would expect that when you mount the HT coil the body is connected to frame earth via the mounting bracket or there is a separate earth lead to do this.

3. Kick-start the engine and observe if both plugs are sparking with a blue spark.

4. If the plugs are sparking OK, then refit them to the cylinders and see if the engine will fire up.

See how it goes! [-o<
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - It works!

fastdonkey
Club Member 12
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 5:03 pm
Country of Residence: united kingdom

Re: condor electrics

Postby fastdonkey » Sun May 07, 2017 6:03 pm

Re: condor electrics

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Postby Galactic Greyhound » Thu May 04, 2017 6:42 pm

Hi Warner,

Hello Ced,

Well that seems to have gone well!

It was a good move to acquire a modern 6v HT coil as it allows you to compare the spark quality between old and new coils.

Your observation of the new Lucas coil spark being slightly more blue is likely due to a more efficient modern coil.

However, it would appear to indicate that your original HT coil is functioning OK.

Which amazes me really !

I would fit the new coil and keep the old as spare unless you want to keep the bike original.

Would like to keep the bike as original as is practically possible, as it's in good overall condition. But I'll keep the coil just in case.

CURRENT STATUS:

It would appear that you are now getting good blue sparks when both tapping an earth on/off with the points insulated and also when opening and closing the points by hand?

Prior to starting this test (C1) I noticed that the dis. cap has a very small crack on its edge which I had failed to notice earlier. It is however
directly in line with the hole where the HT lead enters the cap. May or may not have been a contributory factor, but I will attempt to source
another cap anyway, just in case. Won't do any harm to have a spare as parts will only become more difficult to source.

I also found, completely by accident, that one of the regulator wires was loose on it's connector despite the retaining screw being tight.
If not an issue here then certainly trouble down the road.

TEST C1:
1. What to do now is see if you can get fat blue sparks when kick-starting using the new coil (with the Distributor still not connected and just using a spark plug connected to the coil HT output. The HT coil body and the plug body should be earthed for this test.)

2. If the above test is satisfactory, reconnect the new HT coil to the Distributor and both spark plugs (not inserted into cylinders).
Ensure that the HT coil body and the spark plug bodies are earthed.
I would expect that when you mount the HT coil the body is connected to frame earth via the mounting bracket or there is a separate earth lead to do this.

3. Kick-start the engine and observe if both plugs are sparking with a blue spark.

Test C1; Completed test with the old coil in place, for reason stated above and perhaps an unhealthy amount of curiosity !!

4. If the plugs are sparking OK, then refit them to the cylinders and see if the engine will fire up.

Engine fired and ran on 3rd kick............and seemed fine. Unfortunately, the petrol line did not like being disturbed and now drips,
so a road test will have to wait a little while. Feeling happier now though ! I may just take the opportunity to fit a disposable in line fuel filter
which would tick another box.

I still don't really understand why I lost sparks in the first place but at least I now have a much better system for getting them back if it
happens again, or elsewhere for that matter.

Thanks again for your time and input it really is appreciated( and not just by me), also to Mike D for putting me straight on my oil light !

Take care, Warner





See how it goes! [-o<

Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - It works!


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