Fuse activated for component Ignition Supply

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thorvald
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Fuse activated for component Ignition Supply

Postby thorvald » Sun May 14, 2017 11:55 am

Hi guys,

Bike is BMW R1200RT 2008.

I wonder if someone could help me. Last Tuesday my bike came back home in the van as it broke down and had to be recovered. In general I was riding and the engine stalled, leaving just the triangle with the arrow around symbol on (the one below brake failure light). I pressed the engine start nothing happened at all. Turned the ignition off and on again and started the bike. Few meters later it stalled again same issue. When I got my bike back in my garage I checked it with GS-911 and it dropped 10444: Fuse activated for component Ignition Supply (starter relay, Immo (EWS) ring antenna, ignition coils, injectors) error. However that error wasn't present at the time I did the test. I stripped the bike to the bare frame yesterday to check if there is no water or anything what would potentially cause any short. I checked all the connectirs, sprayed them using the electrical spray for improving the contact, put the bike together again, had a test ride today, after 3-4 miles... it stalled again. Same error. I managed to get back home without any issues however it happened again. Not sure if anyone has ever had this problem. Looking at Google there are not many occurences of this at all and if there is the fault is present what makes troubleshooting easy(ier).

At the moment I'm not going to ride on this bike as I don't feel safe enough. Any troubleshooting tips would be really appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

Regards.

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george baker
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Re: Fuse activated for component Ignition Supply

Postby george baker » Sun May 14, 2017 12:40 pm

Hi
where are you based? Then maybe someone can reccomend local help

Are the fuses the resettable type? If so would it have reset whith the restart?

Which manual are you using?

George
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Galactic Greyhound
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Re: Fuse activated for component Ignition Supply

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Sun May 14, 2017 1:39 pm

Hi,

First, I'm not familiar with the R1200 Hexheads.

However, noted that your GS911 came up with '10444: Fuse activated for component Ignition Supply (starter relay, Immo (EWS) ring antenna, ignition coils, injectors) error. However that error wasn't present at the time I did the test....'

I think that your bike uses the CANBUS system and would be surprised if you have any fuses fitted - the Canbus system itself monitors the current flowing in the various circuits and would shut down a circuit if an over-current fault developed.

What I think the GS911 is saying is that:
a. The power is present for the Ignition circuit.
LATER EDIT: I now think it means the Canbus SHUT DOWN the circuit i.e. the power was removed because of a fault. (see my later post).
b. There is an error in the Ignition circuit.

What little I know of the R1200 bikes is that there was a high failure rate of the EWS Ring Antenna and that this is a likely cause of your problem.

Suggest that you carry the GS911 on the bike and do a circular route about your home and hope that the fault will re-occur so that you can get a GS911 readout while the fault is present.

Check your GS911 to see if it can read a Fault History (Log) from your bike and if so what was the last recorded fault.
It may actually be telling you this with the 10444 Fault Code.

I know that some R1200 riders used to carry a spare Ring Antenna when touring because of the failure risk.
It might be worthwhile just changing it on the offchance if nothing else can be proven.
Also, Google the EWS Ring Antenna to get further info.

My understanding of the EWS system is that the Ring Antenna continually reads a code in your Ignition Key when starting and riding and, if the EWS Ring Antenna fails, the code cannot be read and the system cuts the Ignition to Immobilise the bike.
Last edited by Galactic Greyhound on Sun May 14, 2017 2:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Ced.

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Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
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Re: Fuse activated for component Ignition Supply

Postby thorvald » Sun May 14, 2017 1:52 pm

Hi,

Thank you for your input. I had suspicion around EWS however when EWS fails it displays EWS error on the dashboard... in my case there was no such error. I think I will try to disconnect it and see if this error actually displays anything on the dash or not. I'm pretty sure wherever I read about that people said EWS was on the dashboard too.

My bike indeed is on CANBUS so there are no fuses really which could've failed.

I'm based in Hereford.

Thanks!

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Re: Fuse activated for component Ignition Supply

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Sun May 14, 2017 1:57 pm

Hi,

Yes, I believe you are correct - EWS should be displayed on the dash LCD if it fails.

I believe that the Ignition Key is 'Passive' i.e. It does not need an internal battery for the Key code to be read.
However, if I am wrong and the Ignition Key does contain a battery then that should be replaced.

Can you go for a circular local run with the GS911 fitted so that you can capture the fault if it happens?

LATER EDIT:
See this link:
http://forum.hexcode.co.za/forum/index.php?topic=57.0

I think I was wrong in my earlier statement that 'fuse activated meant power is present'.
Reading the above link, I think it means that the Canbus SHUT DOWN the power for that circuit.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
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Re: Fuse activated for component Ignition Supply

Postby Tango » Sun May 14, 2017 2:22 pm

I have read of a few cases of very tight clipping of the wiring loom around the head stock causing chaffing of cables perhaps you have a cable intermittently shorting to the frame causing the problem. There are no fuses the canbus shuts down the affected circuit on detecting a fault.

There is a thread on ukgser forum of a similar fault I will try to find it and post a link.

In the mean time I would start the bike on the main stand and wiggle the loom in a systematic way to try and replicate the fault. Or as Ced suggests to ride around the block

I would suggest not to rip the loom apart unless you find an area of it causing the problem.

By the way welcome.
Regards,
Marty
(2012) R1200GS
(1992) R80GS
(1987) R100GS Bumble Bee

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Tango
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Re: Fuse activated for component Ignition Supply

Postby Tango » Sun May 14, 2017 2:31 pm

Here we are, gets interesting from post #10

might be way off the mark but its something to consider

http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread ... utting+out
Regards,
Marty
(2012) R1200GS
(1992) R80GS
(1987) R100GS Bumble Bee

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Re: Fuse activated for component Ignition Supply

Postby thorvald » Mon May 15, 2017 8:48 am

Hi guys,

Thank you for your postage. The fault described in the other thread is completely different. This guy experienced a total power loss when moved the handlebars from left to the right. I had it on my older R1150RT as the cables were clipped to the handlebars and naturally with the time they started to bend and break in some places so I had that before and the symptom is when you move or find trapped cable all the lights go off. In my case I have all the power delivered to the dashboard etc the only thing I cannot do is to start the engine again. I need to turn ignition off and on again to start it up. Something is causing a short (as the error code indicates) the question is how to find it as it can be very difficult. I think I will strip the bike to the frame again, the problem is it is really hard to find a fault as I had to take the tank off and the fault only seems to happen when the bike rides or engine is running :/.

EDIT: I cannot do a circular run with GS fitted as it's under the seat and it stands out too much. I won't put the sit back on with GS. I could try to connect it once the fault appears but I don't think it would reveal anything else as it remembers all the faults occurred in the past anyway (unless cleared) so I can read them after a ride as well.

Thanks for your all help!

Regards.

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Re: Fuse activated for component Ignition Supply

Postby Mike D » Mon May 15, 2017 1:25 pm

For those situations where due to space contraints, you can't fit the GS-911 to the diagnostic port and and ride the bike, you can buy an extension cable so that GS-911 can mounted more conveniently.

Mike

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Re: Fuse activated for component Ignition Supply

Postby Tango » Mon May 15, 2017 3:35 pm

Have you seen this, simple demo of how to eliminate each of the mentioned possibilities for that particular fault code?

https://youtu.be/NIi-mG1AOZo

Edit, it's a bit of a slow start, but worth watching through.
Regards,
Marty
(2012) R1200GS
(1992) R80GS
(1987) R100GS Bumble Bee

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Re: Fuse activated for component Ignition Supply

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Mon May 15, 2017 7:31 pm

Excellent!

Good find Marty! :smile:
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
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Re: Fuse activated for component Ignition Supply

Postby thorvald » Thu May 18, 2017 7:36 pm

Hi guys,

I tracked that down (I believe) and I have a potential source of the problem. I started the bike in the garage as something got me this afternoon as I asked myself a question why I managed to ride for a while, then it happened and engine stalled. Why I was able to start the bike when I rolled it back from the recovery van and it was fine... I decided to let it run for longer, about 10-15 minutes. Engine temperature raised to over half and suddenly engine stalled. Pressed the start button, nothing. I was waiting for about 5 minutes, turned the ignition off and on again... it worked. Engine ran for 20-30 seconds, stalled again.

What I think it is... it's one of the ignition coils. Jumped over the internet and found this http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/u ... 2&page=all . Same problem. When engine gets hot coil causes a short and engine stalls. Now I'm scratching my head thinking how to find the one(s) causing a short.

Thanks guys!

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Re: Fuse activated for component Ignition Supply

Postby george baker » Thu May 18, 2017 9:43 pm

hi
possibly get another and swap out, which bike, where are you, how many Plugs, stick coils or conventional

i think i have an 12v, airhead coil in the garage which you can borrow if you are local But you will have to wait until i get back from Wales

George
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Re: Fuse activated for component Ignition Supply

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Thu May 18, 2017 10:56 pm

OK....... have you got upper and lower plugs per cylinder? i.e. a twin plug system.

If so, the ignition should not fail completely as the upper/lower plugs are on different coils - there will likely be a single twin output coil supplying each cylinder but also two stick coils supplying each cylinder individually.

The twin plug Ignition system as above CAN fail totally but this is unlikely to be due to a single coil failure and more likely due to a failure of a common Ignition component such as a Hall Effect Sensor Ignition Trigger Unit.


Have you only got a single plug per cylinder?

If so, then this is likely supplied by a twin output coil and failure of this coil OR its Ignition Control circuit will cause total loss of ignition.

What Ignition system do you have, twin plug or single plug?


You might try using a Heat Gun/Hairdryer to try and determine what component might be failing due to temperature rise
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
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Re: Fuse activated for component Ignition Supply

Postby thorvald » Fri May 19, 2017 8:31 am

Hi guys,

Thank you for your help. It's a twin spark 2 coils per cylinder. One is coming from the side one from the bottom.

I'm based in Hereford.

Thanks!

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Re: Fuse activated for component Ignition Supply

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Fri May 19, 2017 8:40 pm

Hi thorvald,

Thanks for the update.

I have had another look at your 2008 R1200RT Wiring Diagram.

It is possible that the cause of your problem is a faulty Starter Relay, coil, Injector or Ring Antenna whereby the common power feed to these components from the ECU is being cut off (ECU electronic fuse activated) when the component fails by shorting its power feed to earth.

The removal of the power feed to the common circuit above containing the Ring Antenna will cause the Immobiliser to operate as the Ring Antenna can no longer read the code in your Ignition Key.
Note that a power fault in ANY one of the four common components (Starter Relay, Coils, Ring Antenna, Injectors fed by this same power feed will cause the ECU fuse to trip and so operate the Immobiliser as the Ring Antenna will have lost its power supply.

From the symptoms you have provided, when your bike reaches a certain temp the engine stops running.
When this fault occurs, the bike does not respond to the Starter Button.
After a period of at least 5 minutes, the Starter Button becomes operative again but the engine will only run for a short period before the fault re-occurs.

The fact that the Starter Button is rendered inoperative but only for a short period when the engine is hot, points to a possible fault in the Starter Relay , Coils, Immobiliser Antenna or Injectors whereby the item's faulty internal power rail is going short-circuit when it heats up.

Waiting a short period after failure would give the component a chance to cool down and remove the short as power to it will have been cut by the ECU.
Switching the Ignition Off/On again after this short period will restore the ECU power feed to this component until the short re-occurs.
From the Wiring Diagram, it would appear that there is indeed a common power feed to these components from the Engine Control Unit (ECU) and this may be getting shorted to earth internally in any one of the four components.

This diagnosis is supported by your GS-911 readout for Fault Code 10444:
"Fuse activated for component Ignition Supply (starter relay, Immo (EWS) ring antenna, ignition coils, injectors) error."

Starter Relay

This component is not powered up when the engine is running so I do not think it is the cause of the problem.
There is a slight possibility that heat expansion might play a part in causing an internal short.
The relay can be removed after starting to eliminate this component as the cause.


Ring Antenna

You will note that the 'Immo (EWS) ring antenna' is included in the above GS-911 fault report.

What you may wish to try therefore is to start the engine from cold and apply some heat from a Heat Gun/Hairdryer to the Ring Antenna BEFORE the engine reaches half temp (where it usually fails) and see if you can induce the fault to come on earlier.

If you can, then I think that will prove the fault into the component.

Otherwise, you may wish just to replace the component to see if that clears the fault.

Alternatively, there may be a way of bypassing the Ring Antenna by jumpering its connector so that the bike can be started with the component removed.
You will need to Internet search for any jumpering info to bypass the Ring Antenna assuming that this can be done.


Ignition Coils

Failing being able to trigger the fault on the Ring Antenna, you might try doing the same thing with the Coils.
The best test here is to disconnect the power feed to each of the coils to see if the fault clears.
The Main Coil is likely under the petrol tank and would not be as accessible so that is trickier but you could disconnect its connector and try running on just the Stick Coils.
You can also disable a Stick Coil one at a time by disconnecting the connector on top of the coil (Keep the Main Coil connected).
Although the bike will run a bit rough the above should enable you to see if the fault cleared or not.


Injectors

This fault is less likely but still possible.
Disconnect the electrical connector and try running the bike on the other cylinder only to see if the fault clears.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
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Re: Fuse activated for component Ignition Supply

Postby thorvald » Thu May 25, 2017 10:50 am

Hi,

Lower right coil is to blame.

Thanks everyone for your help!
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Re: Fuse activated for component Ignition Supply

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Thu May 25, 2017 11:25 am

That's great - glad you found the problem! :smile:
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
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Re: Fuse activated for component Ignition Supply

Postby Mike D » Fri May 26, 2017 12:58 pm

The Main Coil is likely under the petrol tank and would not be as accessible so that is trickier but you could disconnect its connector and try running on just the Stick Coils.
That would be applicable to the R1150 twin plugged system, but the R1200 moved on to stick coils for both primary and secondary.

Mike

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Re: Fuse activated for component Ignition Supply

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Fri May 26, 2017 4:23 pm

Thanks for that info Mike, I was not aware of that! :smile:
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
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Re: Fuse activated for component Ignition Supply

Postby Mike D » Fri May 26, 2017 6:02 pm

I have seen where 1150 twin spark owners have converted from the secondary standard coil/s to stick coils.

Mike

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Re: Fuse activated for component Ignition Supply

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Fri May 26, 2017 7:05 pm

I have seen where 1150 twin spark owners have converted from the secondary standard coil/s to stick coils.

Mike
Why would they do that?
I thought that Stick Coils were less reliable than the standard twin output coil and a LOT more expensive!
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - It works!

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Re: Fuse activated for component Ignition Supply

Postby Mike D » Sat May 27, 2017 9:31 am

There was a valid reason, but I can't remember it at the moment. I suppose if you are travelling and have only one system you could swap parts around.

I'll see if I can find it.

Mike


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