Gear Shifting Issue

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mightyapu
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Gear Shifting Issue

Postby mightyapu » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:10 pm

Hello there!

I'm looking for a little bit of advice that hopefully helps me solve the little problem i have.

I was unfortunate enough to come off my K1200s a few weeks back, the result being, thankfully, a couple of bruised fingers for me & a bit of a nasty rash down the RHS of the bike. The one obvious bit of damage, apart from the scars, was the to the clutch slave cylinder. I've now replaced this with a nice shiny Oberon one but i seem to have developed a bit of a stubborn problem with the gear indication.

I'll try and describe it as best i can.

The bike will drop into first & cycle through all the gears. However whilst i can put it in neutral, it doesn't show up neutral on the dash & won't start. I can get it to flicker on and start the bike if i put a bit of upward pressure on the gear lever, or downward if showing 2nd gear. On occasion it does show a steady (N) but if i release the clutch lever it's clear the gears are still engaged. If the bike is running & i put it into neutral it's fine, however if i put the side stand down the engine will then cut out. If i ride the bike & run through the gears it shows 1 in first, 2 in second, blank for third, blank for fourth, 4 for fifth & 5 for sixth.

I've looked through a few posts & am thinking about changing the gear position sensor...but before i bought one i'm looking to see if there's anything else i should check or whether it might be a different issue entirely.

Many thanks for any help you can provide.

And hi! :)

Will

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george baker
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Re: Gear Shifting Issue

Postby george baker » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:54 pm

Hi
welcome, what manual are you using?
George
Member 21, R100R, K75 and a Hyosung 250 FOR SALE

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Galactic Greyhound
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Re: Gear Shifting Issue

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:34 pm

Hi Will,

Welcome to the forum! :smile:

What year is your K1200S?

First, I know nothing about K1200S bikes so what follows may be rubbish.

However, I think that your Gear Position Indicator (GPI) might be very similar to or the same as that fitted to my 1996 R1100RT.
If this is the case, then you have a GPI switch fitted to the gearbox which has 4 colour-coded wires coming from it going to your Gear Indicator Display on the dash - these wires are designated A, B, C and Earth.

On the R1100RT there is a separate Neutral Switch piggy-backed on top of the GPI Switch and this Neutral Switch is for the Neutral Light and Starting circuit. However, on your K1200S you may not have this separate Neutral Switch, the Neutral Light and Starting circuit being solely controlled by the GPI Switch and the Display electronics.

The presence of an earth on one or more of the ABC wires gives a code to the Display as to what gear you are in:
e.g. Neutral has a code of ABC meaning that there is an earth present on the A, B & C wires when the Gearbox is in Neutral.

If you look at the Wiring Diagram in your Haynes or Clymer manual, you will see these wires coming from the GPI Switch going to the Display unit.


As your bike has suffered a drop, it is possible that the GPI connector may have been knocked loose and be partially disconnected or it may have suffered damage.
Disconnecting and spraying the connector pins with Contact Cleaner might also effect a cure if the pins are corroded.
If you follow the cable from your GPI Switch, it will go to a connector on the frame - this is your access point for checking if it is loose and for testing.

You can test if it is the GPI Switch which is faulty by disconnecting this GPI connector, identifying the ABC and Earth wires, and applying earths to the ABC wires to simulate the GPI Switch Codes which will show up as the Gear Numbers on the Display.
The Earth wire will be coloured Brown and the ABC wires will each be a different twin-coloured wire.
Make sure that you are sending the ABC wire earths TOWARDS the Display and NOT back to the GPI Switch on the Gearbox.

If you can simulate ALL the gears on the Display unit, then it is the GPI Switch which is faulty.


Here is a short article I wrote for the R1100RT GPI Switch which explains further how the switch works and how to test it.
The RID referred to is the Rider Information Display fitted to the R1100RT which includes a Gear Position Indicator segment.
Note that this article specifically refers to the R1100RT.
Hope it helps! :smile:


R1100RT GPI Circuit.txt Issue: 28/09/2015

Author: Ced [Galactic Greyhound [BMRC]
Date: 02/04/2015
Ref: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=21377&p=139579#p139579

GPI (Gear Position Indicator)
The GPI switch at the back of the gearbox sends an earth via 3 switches to the RID A,B,C input. The necessary earth into the GPI Switch is normally supplied by the RID/Main Loom connector pin #4 (31, Brown wire).
The combination of the earths on the ABC wires tells the RID what gear you are in (5-speed shown).
The main loom connector for the GPI Switch is located on the LH side of the bike, tucked into the frame rails under the Rider's seat by the rear top of the rubber mounting for the Neutral and Sidestand connectors and the CO Pot. You can follow the Neutral Switch and GPI Switch cables from the rear of the Gearbox to locate these connectors.

The Table below indicates how this works where 'X' = an earth on the ABC wires:

GPI TABLE
RID.................A.........B.........C...............Earth
RID Pin #..........1..........2.........3.................4
Wire Colour......Y/Bu.....Y/Bk.....Y/W...........Brown (Bn)
Gear:
1...............................X.........X
0 (Neutral)........X .........X.........X
2....................X....................X
3.........................................X
4....................X..........X
5...............................X


GPI Wiring - see Doug Raymond's Wiring Diagrams on the following link - download the appropriate diagram for your bike:
http://www.mac-pac.org/tech/electrical-diagrams/

TESTING - CARRY OUT TESTS A, B, C AND D AS FOLLOWS:

TEST A - TESTING THE GPI SWITCH AT THE GPI/MAIN LOOM CONNECTOR:
Note that in NEUTRAL you should see an earth on all 3 ABC wires if an earth is supplied to the Brown (Bn) wire on the GPI Switch connector half on the Gearbox side with the bike in Neutral.

1. Put the Gearbox in NEUTRAL.

2. Disconnect the GPI/Main Loom connector on the LH side of the bike under the Rider's seat by the rear top of the rubber mounting for the Neutral and Sidestand connectors and the CO Pot.

3. Connect a good earth to the Brown wire (earth) connection on the GEARBOX side of the GPI connector half.

4. Using an Ohmmeter, connect between each of the ABC wires in turn on the GEARBOX side of the GPI connector half and a good earth point. You should measure continuity to earth on
all the wires.

5. If no fault found, proceed to Test B.


TEST B - TESTING THE EARTH SUPPLY TO THE GPI SWITCH AT THE GPI/MAIN LOOM CONNECTOR:
Note: The earth for the GPI Switch is supplied from the Rider Information Display (RID) pin #4 to the GPI connector RID (Main Loom) side.

1. Using an Ohmmeter, connect between the earth (Brown) wire on the RID (Main Loom) side of the GPI connector half and a good earth point. You should measure continuity to earth on
the wire.

2. If no fault found, proceed to Test C.


TEST C - TESTING THE GPI SWITCH AT THE RID/MAIN LOOM CONNECTOR:

1. Carefully unscrew and displace the black dash panel clear of the RID avoiding shorting out any wires behind.

2. Ensure that the GPI/Main Loom connector on the LH side of the bike under the Rider's seat is re-connected and that the Gearbox is in Neutral.

3. Remove the RID/Main Loom connector from its mounting at the top RH side above the RID.
Note that there is a latching tab on the connector which must be slid aside to allow the connector to be removed from its frame mounting for testing.

4. Disconnect the RID/Main Loom connector halves.

5. Using an Ohmmeter, check that there is continuity on the Brown wire (earth) pin #4 connection on the GEARBOX (Main Loom) side of the RID connector half and a good earth point.

6. Using an Ohmmeter, connect between each of the ABC wires in turn on the GEARBOX side of the RID connector half (pins # 1, 2 & 3) and pin #4 (earth). You should measure continuity
to earth on all the wires.

7. If no fault found, proceed to Test D.


TEST D - TESTING THE RID GPI FUNCTION AT THE RID/MAIN LOOM CONNECTOR:

1. With the RID/Main Loom connector disconnected, measure the Voltage between the Main Loom connedctor half pins #4 (Brown wire, earth 31) and #6 (Green/Yellow wire, 12v + 15) with the
Ignition On, the Sidestand 'Up' and the Kill Switch in the 'Run' position. The Voltmeter should indicate 12v.
Note: Pin #5 (Red/White wire, 12v + 30A3 is the fused feed for the Clock only).

2. Switch the Ignition 'Off'.

3. Using two jumper wires, connect between the two connector halves pins #4 (earth) and #6 (12v+) to power up the RID with the connector halves separated.

4. Switch the Ignition 'On', the Sidestand 'Up' and the Kill Switch in the 'Run' position. The RID should be powered up except for the Clock, Gauges and GPI as indicated by the backlight
illuminating.

5. Using 3 jumper wires connected to a good earth at one end, apply earth/s to the RID Connector half pins #1, #2 & #3 (A, B & C) in accordance with the GPI Table given at the start of this article.

6. The RID GPI should indicate the relevant gears when the appropriate earth/s are applied as per the table (x) e.g. applying an earth to RID pins #1, #2 & #3 together will show '0' (Neutral) on
the RID GPI.

________________
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

mightyapu
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Re: Gear Shifting Issue

Postby mightyapu » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:56 pm

Thanks for the greetings and great info!

It's a 2005 model & i've got a copy of the Motorrad repair & service manual.

I've not done much electrical fault finding, so it'll be interesting to see figure it out :)

I'm off Thurs so i'll have a play, look for any obvious damage, clean up the connections & see what happens.

Cheers

Will

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Galactic Greyhound
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Re: Gear Shifting Issue

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:47 am

Thanks for the greetings and great info!

It's a 2005 model & i've got a copy of the Motorrad repair & service manual.

I've not done much electrical fault finding, so it'll be interesting to see figure it out :)

I'm off Thurs so i'll have a play, look for any obvious damage, clean up the connections & see what happens.

Cheers

Will

Hi Will,

That is good for a start!

Noted you have not done much electrical fault finding - first just concentrate on finding that GPI connector.
Disconnect it and clean it up as you say with Contact Cleaner.

Here are better instructions for you than posted earlier:

1. If connector cleaning does not clear the problem then disconnect it again and look at the connector half which goes into the main loom towards the Display unit.

2. Look for the three connector pins which have the 2-colour ABC wires connected (on the Display unit side connector half).
Make up three lengths of test wire and connect one end of each of these to the Battery Negative (EARTH) terminal.
Bare the other ends of the three wires so that you can connect/touch them to the ABC connector half pins going to the Display unit.
These are your three earth-connected test wires.

3. Put the bike on the MAINSTAND, in Neutral (check that the rear wheel rotates freely).
Switch ON the Ignition so that the Display unit lights.

4. You are now going to connect or touch an earth test wire or wires to the ABC connector half pins which go to the Display unit according to the chart below WHILE watching what is shown on the Display unit:

The Table below indicates how this works where 'X' = an earth on the ABC wires:

GPI TABLE
RID.................A.........B.........C...............Earth
RID Pin #..........1..........2.........3.................4
Wire Colour......Y/Bu.....Y/Bk.....Y/W...........Brown (Bn)
Gear:
1...............................X.........X
0 (Neutral)........X .........X.........X
2....................X....................X
3.........................................X
4....................X..........X
5...............................X
6....................X

Keep a written note of what is shown on the Display unit when you connect earths to the appropriate ABC wires as the coding may be different for your K1200S.
e.g.
B + C = 1
A + B + C = 0

The 'X's cover all combinations for the ABC wires - note that your K1200S may NOT use the same coding, colours or pin numbers which doesn't matter as you are just making sure that you get ALL the gears shown on the Display unit for the full combination.

You should be able to start the bike when the Display unit shows '0' (Neutral).
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

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Re: Gear Shifting Issue

Postby mightyapu » Fri May 11, 2018 4:41 pm

Just wanted to close this out & say thank you for the pointers. Turned out it was the gear position indicator. The splayed recess for the d-shaft from the gearbox had worn meaning it wasn't rotating far enough to tell the bike the correct gear. Simple enough fix, though it did cost a few quid. Cheers.

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Ruralman
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Re: Gear Shifting Issue

Postby Ruralman » Fri May 11, 2018 7:00 pm

Hi Will,
Welcome to the forum
Regards
Keith


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Club Chairman
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----------------------------------
2006 R1200GSA
'Live to ride - ride to live'
\:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/

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Galactic Greyhound
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Re: Gear Shifting Issue

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Fri May 11, 2018 7:44 pm

Hi Will,

Thanks for the update - appreciated!

Keith [Ruralman] on the forum here seems to have a very similar problem although it is with his 2006 R1200GSA:
viewtopic.php?f=85&t=26855
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

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Ruralman
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Re: Gear Shifting Issue

Postby Ruralman » Fri May 11, 2018 8:12 pm

Hello there!

I'm looking for a little bit of advice that hopefully helps me solve the little problem i have.

I was unfortunate enough to come off my K1200s a few weeks back, the result being, thankfully, a couple of bruised fingers for me & a bit of a nasty rash down the RHS of the bike. The one obvious bit of damage, apart from the scars, was the to the clutch slave cylinder. I've now replaced this with a nice shiny Oberon one but i seem to have developed a bit of a stubborn problem with the gear indication.

I'll try and describe it as best i can.

The bike will drop into first & cycle through all the gears. However whilst i can put it in neutral, it doesn't show up neutral on the dash & won't start. I can get it to flicker on and start the bike if i put a bit of upward pressure on the gear lever, or downward if showing 2nd gear. On occasion it does show a steady (N) but if i release the clutch lever it's clear the gears are still engaged. If the bike is running & i put it into neutral it's fine, however if i put the side stand down the engine will then cut out. If i ride the bike & run through the gears it shows 1 in first, 2 in second, blank for third, blank for fourth, 4 for fifth & 5 for sixth.

I've looked through a few posts & am thinking about changing the gear position sensor...but before i bought one i'm looking to see if there's anything else i should check or whether it might be a different issue entirely.

Many thanks for any help you can provide.

And hi! :)

Will
Hi Will,
I’ve been having the same problems with my 2006 R1200gsa, the day before yesterday my bike wouldn’t turnover and the (N) Neutral was not displaying properly!
Today I managed to do as you did and press slightly on the gear lever enabling the bike to start. After drive a short distance up my drive I then put the bike back in the garage noticing that the (N) was now displayed correctly! Long and short is now the bike appears to be back to normal and is starting as normal with (N) is displayed as normal.
I have also noticed recently that the gear display has been muddled which seems similar to your bikes symptoms.
Regards
Keith


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Keith Hillier
Club Chairman
chairman@bmridersclub.com
----------------------------------
2006 R1200GSA
'Live to ride - ride to live'
\:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/

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Galactic Greyhound
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Re: Gear Shifting Issue

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Fri May 11, 2018 9:23 pm

Are you both CANbus bikes?
Perhaps using the same ECU?
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

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Ruralman
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Re: Gear Shifting Issue

Postby Ruralman » Fri May 11, 2018 9:24 pm

Hi Ced,
My R1200gsa is Canbus.
Regards
Keith


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Keith Hillier
Club Chairman
chairman@bmridersclub.com
----------------------------------
2006 R1200GSA
'Live to ride - ride to live'
\:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/

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Galactic Greyhound
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Re: Gear Shifting Issue

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Fri May 11, 2018 9:33 pm

Hi Ced,
My R1200gsa is Canbus.
Regards
Keith


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I wonder if Will's 2005 K1200S is as well?
They could be using the same ECU.
The GPI (Gear Position Indicator) Switch feeds directly into the ECU on CANbus bikes.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

User avatar
Ruralman
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Re: Gear Shifting Issue

Postby Ruralman » Fri May 11, 2018 9:36 pm

Hi Ced,
My R1200gsa is Canbus.
Regards
Keith


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I wonder if Will's 2005 K1200S is as well?
They could be using the same ECU.
The GPI (Gear Position Indicator) Switch feeds directly into the ECU on CANbus bikes.
I expect that Wills bike is Canbus also.
Regards
Keith


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Keith Hillier
Club Chairman
chairman@bmridersclub.com
----------------------------------
2006 R1200GSA
'Live to ride - ride to live'
\:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/

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Re: Gear Shifting Issue

Postby mightyapu » Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:40 pm

Hi Keith...mine was all about the positioner. Once I’d removed it I could rotate the centre spigot and cycle through the gears on the display. This gave me the confidence that it was the problem, the d shaft slipping, and not gremlins somewhere else. Cheers, Will

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Ruralman
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Re: Gear Shifting Issue

Postby Ruralman » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:32 pm

That’s great news Will.
Regards
Keith


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Keith Hillier
Club Chairman
chairman@bmridersclub.com
----------------------------------
2006 R1200GSA
'Live to ride - ride to live'
\:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/


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