Indicators flashing double time. Urgent.

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King Herald
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Indicators flashing double time. Urgent.

Postby King Herald » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:34 pm

I’m off to France in two days, but noticed today my indicators have started to flash at twice normal speed sometimes. Engine running or not, it makes no difference, happens at random.

1997 1100r

It happens on both sides, yet all bulbs are working, no dead bulbs. Sometimes it doesn’t do it, sometimes it does.

Hazard warning lights work normally.

Off to the garage now to check the flasher unit, look at wires etc.
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Re: Indicators flashing double time. Urgent.

Postby Jaythro » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:42 pm

I think that is the same flasher unit as the K 100 / K1100

If you can scoosh each bulb holder with ACF 50 in case its a higher resistance connection and double check the connections on the base of the flasher unit central row right hand side If I recall correctly but the illustrious Ced (Galactic Greyhound will be sure to know as his bike is basically the same)
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Re: Indicators flashing double time. Urgent.

Postby windmill john » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:44 pm

Well King Herald, I’ve been doing so badly with my answers on the Airhead section this week, let’s carry on!

If it is not a dodgy connection/corrosion in the wiring/connections, I would say the flasher unit. I await to be chastised again.
I’m source one of the guys knows how to test the flasher relay.
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Re: Indicators flashing double time. Urgent.

Postby Jaythro » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:45 pm

Relay number 61317679867

For fitment list Click Here
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Re: Indicators flashing double time. Urgent.

Postby milleplod » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:50 pm

In stock at Motorworks I think. Not a million miles from you either, but if you're short of time and need a Pony Express-type hand picking up and relaying (see what I did there.... :lol: ) the part, give me a shout...any excuse for a run out!

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Re: Indicators flashing double time. Urgent.

Postby King Herald » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:55 pm

Thanks for the ideas, I’ve been in the shed and checked connections cleaned bulbs etc, nothing looks corroded, dirty or ripped up. I can’t duplicate the fault either now, it simply doesn’t want to do it. Heat related?

The flasher unit, £121 for a new one from Motorworks?? A bloody flasher?? 8-[

They are about £3 to buy a generic flasher unit for a car, so exactly how does the BMW one differ from one of them?

I have the rear wheel out of the bike for a new tyre at the moment, should be fitted tomorrow. Plus I’ve just bought a new tent, panniers, travel insurance etc. I fear I may resort to hand signals if necessary, I really don’t want to be laying out £120+ until I am sure it is the flasher, and/or it has died altogether.
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Galactic Greyhound
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Re: Indicators flashing double time. Urgent.

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:20 pm

If your R1100R uses the same Turn Signal/Hazard relay as my R1100RT (I think that this is likely) then it is a quite sophisticated plug-in electronic relay which bears no similarity the usual Indicator Relays.

The double-speed flashing appears to indicate that there may be a high resistance +12v supply to the Indicator Relay on pin 1 (15A4, Green/Brown wire) or pin 2 (30A3, Red/White wire - there are therefore TWO +12v feeds to the Indicator Relay because it controls both the Indicators and the Hazard circuit.
Check the Fuses that supply these +12v feeds for corrosion/poor contact, on the R1100RT it is Fuse 4 and Fuse 3 respectively but your R1100R may use different fuse numbers.
If the Hazards work normally then I would suspect a problem with Fuse 4, the Indicator supply.

Even if you cannot find the fault in time, if the Indicators keep working at double-speed then at least you are indicating so I would not worry too much!

The quickest way to find if it is the Turn Signal relay at fault is to replace the relay from another bike if you have anyone nearby.
Maybe Motorworks will let you try a used/new one to verify if yours is faulty or not.
NOTE the relay is locked into the socket and need to be unlatched - care needs to be taken when removing it - see the Turn Signal Relay Pinout diagram for detailed removal instructions.


Oilhead Turn Signal Faulting

If you have a Haynes or a Clymer Manual for your bike, then look at the Wiring Diagram/Turn Signal Relay and Handlebar Switches.
If you don't have the above, then download Doug Raymond's Wiring Diagram for the R1100RT which will let you see how the Turn Signal Relay operates - here is the link:
http://www.mac-pac.org/tech/electrical-diagrams/

Looking at the Wiring Diagram (on P3 of 3 of Doug's diagram) , you will see that the LH, RH, Hazard and Cancel switches operate by sending an earth to the appropriate terminal of the Turn Indicator Relay.

It could be a wiring, fuse or relay fault that is causing the problem.

I'm assuming that on the R1100R, the LH Turn, Horn and Hazard Switches are on the LH grip and the RH Turn and Cancel switches are on the RH grip? Correct me if I am wrong with this assumption as it will affect the testing. :-k

CAUTION: The following testing is done on the SOCKET for the Turn Signal Indicator Relay which is fitted inside the Fusebox.
Note that the Turn Signal Indicator Relay LATCHES into this socket which is loosely attached to the main wiring loom and the relay MUST be detached from the socket in accordance with the procedure given in the 'Turn Signal Socket Pinout diagram below to avoid damage.

1. Disconnect the Battery negative (earth) terminal.
2. Detach the Turn Signal Indicator Relay from its socket (see CAUTION above).
3. Re-connect the Battery negative (earth) terminal.
4. Check for +12v on the Turn Signal Socket pin #2 (Red wire) [Ignition Off].
5. Switch Ignition On.
6. Check for +12v on the Turn Signal Socket pin #1 (Green/brown wire).
7. Check for earth on the Turn Signal Socket pin #7 (Brown wire).

CAUTION: Be careful - you are now going to be jumpering a live +12v power feed - avoid shorting to earth or any other pins!
DON'T damage the socket pins by using too big a wire for jumpering!

8. Jumper socket pin #1 (Green/brown wire) to pin #12 (Blue/red wire) - the LH front and rear Indicators and the dash LH Indicator Warning Light should illuminate without flashing.
9. Jumper socket pin #1 (Green/brown wire) to pin #6 (Blue/black wire) - the RH front and rear Indicators and the dash RH Indicator Warning Light should illuminate without flashing.

10. Switch Ignition Off.
11. Using a Test Lamp or an Ohmmeter, check for the presence of an earth on the following socket pins - NO earth should be seen:
a. Pin #3, Blue/black wire, terminal #TL, LH Turn switch.
b. Pin #5, Yellow/violet wire, terminal #WBT, Hazard Warning switch.
c. Pin #4, White/brown wire, terminal #TA, Turn Cancel switch.
d. Pin #8, Blue/yellow wire, terminal #TR, RH Turn switch.

12. Now, repeat 11 above again but this time OPERATE each switch as you test it for an earth. You should see the Test Lamp/Ohmmeter show continuity as you press the switch thus proving the switch is working OK and it is sending an earth to the Turn Signal Relay.


TURN SIGNAL SOCKET PINOUT DIAGRAM
Click to Enlarge/Save As
Turn Signal Socket Pinout.jpg
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Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
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Re: Indicators flashing double time. Urgent.

Postby King Herald » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:12 pm

Thanks for the detailed reply Ced. It definitely looks like this flasher is more than your average car flasher.

And yes, my turn buttons are one on each handlebar, and cancel on the right.

I shall leave any testing until I get back from my travels, lest I fry something or the flashers pack up altogether after my fumblings.
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Galactic Greyhound
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Re: Indicators flashing double time. Urgent.

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:41 pm

Might be worth checking the Indicators and Hazard fuses (Fuses 4 & 3) for bad connection/corrosion - you can't do much wrong with that!
The Indicator Fuse 4 is fed from the Load Relief Relay Make contact so if this relay contact is dodgy it may cause a high resistance in the Indicator Turn Relay power feed [Turn Relay Pin 1 15A4] and so affect the flash rate.
I have checked that Fuse 4 is indeed used for the Indicators and Fuse 3 [Turn Relay Pin 2 30A3] is used for the Hazard circuit on the R1100R in a Haynes R1100R Wiring Diagram.

The Load Relief Relay Make contact also supplies the Headlight Main/Dip and the Horn so if you get any problems occurring there suspect the Load Relief Relay.
The Load Relief Relay operates when the Ignition is On but releases (and so cuts off Headlamp, Horn, Indicators etc) when the Starter Button is pressed to reduce the battery load when starting.

It may also be dirty/corroded pins 1 and/or 2 in the Turn Signal Relay or Relay socket and unplugging and refitting may clean that up.

If you don't want to touch anything in case it fails, then print out the 'Turn Signal Relay Pinout' diagram and take it with you in case of failure on the road.
The diagram notes explain how to unplug the Turn Signal Relay.

Have a good trip! :grin:
Ced.

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Re: Indicators flashing double time. Urgent.

Postby King Herald » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:59 am

I have to admit, I don’t have a proper manual for this bike. I always come to the internet when I need information. (I know I should get one, Common Sense really)

This is the fuse box layout I am looking at, does it seem correct?
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Re: Indicators flashing double time. Urgent.

Postby King Herald » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:00 am

I’ve checked all fuses, fuse holders etc, not a sign of corrosion at all.
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Re: Indicators flashing double time. Urgent.

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:56 am

This is the fuse box layout I am looking at, does it seem correct?

Yes, it looks OK.
I checked the Fuse allocations against the R1100R Haynes Wiring Diagram.

I’ve checked all fuses, fuse holders etc, not a sign of corrosion at all.

That's good - it is therefore likely that there is a corroded connection in the Turn Signal Relay socket or the Turn Signal relay pins.
If the Turn Signal relay is unplugged and reinserted into the socket then this may clear any corrosion on the socket/pins.
NOTE: The relay is LATCHED in position and needs to be unlatched before it can be removed from the floating (loose wired) socket it is plugged into. See the 'TURN SIGNAL SOCKET PINOUT DIAGRAM' posted earlier for the procedure on unlatching/latching the Turn Signal/Hazard Relay.

If it is working OK you may wish to leave it alone until the fault re-occurs when you can then try the unplugging procedure above.
A squirt of WD40 or Contact Cleaner would not go amiss either.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
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Re: Indicators flashing double time. Urgent.

Postby King Herald » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:15 pm

I took the flasher out Ced, and give it a squirt with carb cleaner and WD40, no signs of corrosion, dirt or damage, unfortunately. Interesting catch mechanism, sort of a cam release device.

I shall wait and see what develops. It may be heat related, because yesterday was the first time I have been out two-up in this hot weather, during the middle of the day. And that was when the fault really started to occur repeatedly.
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Re: Indicators flashing double time. Urgent.

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:50 pm

Yes, it's quite possible high temp could cause this problem to the all electronic relay.
I don't know what the temp operating spec is.

At least you have eliminated corroded fuses and relay pins/sockets.

It doesn't leave much other than the relay earth return circuit or a faulty relay itself.
If it happens again, check out both the +12v feeds and earth at the socket (with the relay unplugged) as per the Turn Signal Testing procedure posted previously but use a Test Lamp with a 21W bulb so that a high current is drawn and anything dodgy will show up as reduced brightness compared with when the Test Lamp is connected directly across the battery.

NOTE: A Voltmeter alone will read 12v whether or not there is a high resistance in the circuit because it draws virtually no current and the circuit is not under load (not drawing current) so the Voltmeter is useless unless it is used in conjunction across the Test Lamp to obtain a more accurate voltage measurement reference than just the brightness and where the Test Lamp provides the load for the circuit.

USING A TEST LAMP

For electrical testing on your bike all you need is a simple 12v Test Lamp. Make this up from a 12v bulb in a holder with each of the two leads about 1 metre long with large croc clips either end.
Use a filament (NOT LED) bulb between 10 and 21 Watts in the holder. You can clip a small screwdriver to one of the leads to use as a probe.

The Test Lamp is used as follows:
1. Connect the test lamp across the battery terminals - the Test Lamp should light which proves that the battery is charged and the lamp is working.
Note what the FULL brightness of the Test Lamp looks like when connected across the battery terminals - the brightness level can be used to determine faults if the brightness is not at maximum.

2. To test for +12v (Live) - disconnect the Test Lamp lead from the battery +12v (positive live) terminal, the Test Lamp will go out - it will light up again when you tap that lead onto a point which is at +12v (Live).

3. To test for -12v (Earth/Ground) - disconnect the Test Lamp lead from the battery -12v (negative earth/ground) terminal, the Test Lamp will go out - it will light up again when you tap that lead onto a point which is at -12v (Earth/Ground).

4. Summary:
To Probe for +12v, clip to the -12v (Battery Negative terminal).
To Probe for -12v (earth), clip to the +12v (Battery Positive terminal).


Note: Electrical wiring products including wire by the metre length can be obtained online from:
Vehicle Wiring Products http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
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Re: Indicators flashing double time. Urgent.

Postby King Herald » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:16 pm

Thanks again for the comprehensive info Ced, I will investigate fully at a later date.
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Re: Indicators flashing double time. Urgent.

Postby King Herald » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:23 pm

So, 2600 miles across Europe, with nary a problem. I’m assuming it was some sort of connection problem, earth leak, whatever, that I cured when cleaning plugs and fuses etc. Fingers crossed it stays gone.
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Galactic Greyhound
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Re: Indicators flashing double time. Urgent.

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:27 pm

Thanks for the update - fingers crossed! :smile:
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
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Re: Indicators flashing double time. Urgent.

Postby Brickboy » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:50 pm

I bet it was remaking the relay connection just by removing it that fixed it. I'e done that on loads of bikes. Why BM need a super complex indicator system is one of the great Bavarian mysteries :)

Simon


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