loss of spark

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Galactic Greyhound
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Re: loss of spark

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:45 pm

This is useful for reviewing the Tests:

INDEX OF TESTS

TEST#…………….TEST

1. Motronic Relay (Part 1).

2. Motronic Relay (Part 2).

3. Lower HES (Fuel) - Check Fuel Pump Relay re-operates when cranking.

4. Upper HES (Ignition) and ECU (Z1) Test.

5. Upper & Lower HES Test (HES on bike).

6. HES and HT Coil Primary to ECU Wiring Continuity.

7. Power and Signal Tests on Connected ECU.

8. ECU Power To: ECU, HES Unit, & ECU Main Earth.

9. ECU HT Coil Control - Continuity.

10. ECU Lock-Out Reset.

11. 5v Power Rail Voltage Test.

12. HT Coil Primary Connector.

13. Simulated HES Ignition Pulses to ECU.

_____________
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
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Re: loss of spark

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:59 pm

Dave,

Listed below is a two part video by ScannerDanner which details how the HT Coil is controlled by the ECU and how the (Z1) driver transistor gets fired.

YouTube Video Title: Ignition System Operation & Testing - (No Spark Toyota Celica)

The demonstration is on a US spec Toyota car which has NO SPARK.
The vehicle uses a separate combined Igniter/Coil module but the principle is the same as for your Motronic ECU where the 'Igniter' circuit (Z1) is contained inside the ECU and outputs on the Z1 terminal.
Your HES Ignition signal is equivalent to the Crankshaft sensor input signal IGT for the Ignition.
It also refers to a 'bouncing Tachometer' and explains why this happens.

The symptoms are slightly different from yours whereby the previous Tests showed that your Z1 driver is not producing the pulsing earth on Z1 to fire the coil whereas the Toyota IS getting this output.

There is an interesting test using a Lab Scope and Current Clamp on the HT Coil which will interest you.
The coil initially appears to be OK but on closer inspection of the Scope waveform there seems to be voltage breakdown causing a short in the Secondary winding.

Part 1 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqcKd_G ... e=youtu.be

Part 2- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxMqLbBYKps
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
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Re: loss of spark

Postby dave c » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:09 pm

TEST #13
SIMULATED HES IGNITION PULSES TO ECU

NOTE: This test is for a 12v HES only!

This test simulates the HES Ignition pulses (S1) at the ECU HES Ignition Signal input pin 31 Orange wire and observes whether the ECU reacts to the signal by activating the ECU Z1 Coil Control.

1. Set the bike on the Mainstand, Sidestand UP and Gearbox in Neutral.

2. Disconnect the Ignition Trigger Unit HES connector halves on the front RH side of the bike just below the level of the Alternator (This disables and isolates the HES Trigger Unit on the bike).

3. Disconnect the HT Coil Primary Connector (in case the Coil Primary is faulty).

4. Connect a Voltmeter Negative lead to the Battery Negative (earth) terminal and set the Voltmeter to read around 12v DC.

5. Locate the position of the HES Ignition Signal S1 Orange wire on the ECU Connector pin 31.

6. Switch the Ignition ON.

7. Measure the voltage on this S1 Signal wire at ECU Connector pin 31 Orange wire.

8. IF the voltage is at or near 0V, then connect one lead of a filament bulb type (NOT LED) Test Lamp to the Battery Positive terminal (for simulating a Pull-Up signal).
IF the voltage is at or near 12v, then connect one lead of a filament bulb type (NOT LED) Test Lamp to the Battery Negative (earth) terminal (for simulating a Pull-Down signal).

9. Disconnect the Voltmeter Negative lead from the Battery Negative (earth) terminal and connect it securely to the ECU Z1 Coil Control terminal pin 25.

10. Connect the Voltmeter Positive Lead to the Battery Positive terminal.

11. Using the Test Lamp (connected as in 5 & 6 above) WITH a 1KOhm resistor in series, simulate HES Ignition pulses by TAPPING On & Off repeatedly on the S1 Signal wire at ECU Connector pin 31 Orange wire WHILE observing the Voltmeter.

12. If the Voltmeter shows a pulsing 12v, then the ECU is switching the Z1 Coil Control circuit (the Voltmeter is looking for the Coil Control earths appearing on the Z1 pin 35).

NOTE:
The ECU Z1 pin 35 is earthed each time an HES Ignition pulse is received.
If this test is, or is NOT, successful, then the HT Coil Connector and Spark Plugs should be reconnected and a check made to see if the plugs are sparking when the HES Ignition Signal input is again simulated.
Results test#13
its taken me a while as I needed to get a 1k ohm resistor you cant walk into maplins any more and buy one.
13/7 voltage at pin 31= 11.22 volts
13/11 wired up as directed no response at volt meter.
coil reconnected still no response.
so I guess the ECU is not switching even when pulsed manually.
conclusion faulty ECU?

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Re: loss of spark

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:43 pm

Hi Dave,

Again, well done on Test #13 :smile:

That was a bit of a blind test as I wasn't sure if it was going to work but it was worth trying to see if there was a response from the ECU.

However, I am pretty sure your HES pulses are getting to the ECU by the previous tests you have carried out.

It is looking like the ECU Z1 Coil Control driver circuit has failed.
This can happen if the HT Coil primary winding is shorted out - it is only 0.5 Ohms normally so it is difficult to test this and the fault may only occur when the coil is subjected to heat and/or vibration.

CAUTION: Whatever happens next, do NOT use that coil if a replacement ECU is fitted!!

I was hoping that Grant's diagnostic tools might show that the ECU Z1 Coil Control has indeed failed and will hold off advice till I hear from you about this - anything to report yet?
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
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Re: loss of spark

Postby dave c » Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:41 pm

no nothing to report yet as I don't have my car at the moment, I have had some cold starting issues (its a diesel freelander) so I am waiting on a call from the garage to say its been sorted, they have had it 2 weeks so it shouldn't be too long now. and our little run around (Hyundai) doesn't have a tow hitch which I need for the trailer.
Dave.
Ps is there any one that fixes the electronics on the ECU's or am I going to be left with 2 duds?

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Re: loss of spark

Postby Mjolinor » Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:50 pm

I will have a look at them for you if you want to send them to me.

I will probably need to start a new thread about pinouts and stuff in order to trace tracks but if it is only output transistors then it shouldn't be too hard.

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Re: loss of spark

Postby dave c » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:03 pm

OK Mj lets see what the diagnostics say, and we will take it from there. will be in touch. Cheers Dave.

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Re: loss of spark

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:01 pm

I will have a look at them for you if you want to send them to me.

I will probably need to start a new thread about pinouts and stuff in order to trace tracks but if it is only output transistors then it shouldn't be too hard.

Good man Mjolinor! :grin:

If you start a new thread for Dave's ECU diagnostics, I'll paste the link to Doug Raymond's R1150RT ladder type wiring diagram into it which will give you the Motronic MA2.4 ECU pinouts, sensor and power connections etc for his 2002 R1150R single-spark.

However, I think Dave should send you the ORIGINAL ECU but hold onto the 2nd ECU (the one currently fitted and being tested) for when the bike gets trailered to Grant in Swansea so that Grant has a chance to try his diagnostic tools on the bike - what do you think?
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

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Re: loss of spark

Postby Mjolinor » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:34 pm

Makes sense to me. Is the manufacturer somewhere in the thread? I would assume Bosch (:)) or Siemens (:(), probably someone completely different knowing my luck. Bosch are much easier to repair generally than Siemens. Better designers. When one designs stuff like this it is much more sensible for repair to make one thing do one job as Bosch do, or you can make one thing do several jobs as Siemens do.

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Re: loss of spark

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:50 pm

Makes sense to me. Is the manufacturer somewhere in the thread? I would assume Bosch (:)) or Siemens (:(), probably someone completely different knowing my luck. Bosch are much easier to repair generally than Siemens. Better designers. When one designs stuff like this it is much more sensible for repair to make one thing do one job as Bosch do, or you can make one thing do several jobs as Siemens do.

It's a Bosch Motronic MA2.4, should be BMW Part Number 13617658614 for a 2002 R1150R Single-Spark.

RealOEM Parts Fiche: https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showpa ... Id=13_0841

Motorworks Used Part: https://www.motorworks.co.uk/vlive/Shop ... rch=SEARCH

Bosch Technical Archive: http://www.bosch-classic.com/en/interne ... sicht.html#
If you register on the Technical Archive then you should be able to download the literature (Automotive Handbook 8th Edition UK) for this Bosch Part 0 261 206 173.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

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Re: loss of spark

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:10 pm

OK Mj lets see what the diagnostics say, and we will take it from there. will be in touch. Cheers Dave.

Dave,

Does your bike have an Alarm/Immobiliser fitted?
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

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Re: loss of spark

Postby dave c » Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:40 pm

no there is no alarm or immobiliser. Dave.

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Re: loss of spark

Postby Gendan » Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:09 pm

Hi all,

Dave visited me today is Swansea but sadly we were unable to resolve the fault.

We scanned the bike and the only codes present were 0335 and 0385 (fault codes for both HES sensors).
These did clear on one occasion after cranking the bike for a little while.

We worked through several tests while Dave was here.

1. We put an oscilloscope on the hall sensor outputs and read 10-12V pulses from each sensor when the engine was cranking.
2. We checked there was a 12V power supply to the HES sensors.
3. We checked the HES ground wire had good continuity to battery negative.
4. We could not hear any injector clicks and did not read any signal to the injectors when using a scope breakout lead.
5. We checked all fuses in the top fuse box (by the relays) were good.
6. We tried 2 different Engine ECUs.
7. We could not read any HT spark signal when using coil extension leads with an oscilloscope. However, we did see a spark from the plug very briefly on one occasion but could not replicate it.
8. We tried the ECU reset by leaving fuse 5 disconnected for 10 minutes.
9. We checked the operation of the stand switch and neutral switch by measuring the voltage at the relay coil pins (with relay removed).
- 12V across the relay coil with Stand down and in Neutral
- 0V across the relay coil with Stand down and in gear
- 12V across the relay coil with Stand Up

I am leaning towards a wiring fault but did not have a chance to look through the bike wiring diagrams to find what could stop the spark and injectors - apart from the Motronic relay. It is very unlikely 2 engine ECUs could be faulty and failing to detect the HES signals.
The Engine ECU is powering up as we can talk to it for diagnostics.

Grant.

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Re: loss of spark

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:02 pm

Hi Grant,

Thank you for posting and for taking the time to look at Dave's R1150R! :grin:

From your post you have given it a good going over!

The HES Fault Codes picked up are normal when initially doing a Fault Code Readout but should clear after cranking.


If it helps, here is a link to a ladder-type wiring diagram for an R1150RT which is very similar to Dave's R1150R Single-Spark as far as the main wiring goes:
https://www.mac-pac.org/tech/electrical-diagrams/

It was good to hear that both the HES pulses into the ECU were seen on the Oscilloscope as this was a possible concern as the only way Dave could check this was by an average voltage on his multimeter so there was an area of doubt existing on this.
It was assumed to be OK as the HES average pulse voltage readings were the same for the Upper and Lower HES sensors at the ECU inputs.

The Motronic relay was checked under TESTS #1 and #2 earlier in this thread and found to be OK.

The Lower HES (Fuelling pulses, S2) re-operate the Fuel Pump relay when the engine is being cranked over whereby an earth appears on the ECU EKR pin 16 Blue/Brown wire during cranking/running.
When the Fuel Pump relay operates, it applies +12v from Fuse #6 to the Fuel Pump and the Injectors on the Green/White wire.
This +12v supply was checked under TEST #3 earlier in this thread and found to be OK.
The injectors are fired by a pulsing earth on the ECU VERV pin 20 Yellow/Grey wire during cranking/running. This was not checked as only the Ignition circuit was being investigated.


My own view of the problem is that BOTH of the ECUs are faulty, the original and the replacement.
A possible cause of this is a faulty HT Coil which has damaged the ECU Z1 pin #35 Coil Control circuit inside the ECU.
The scenario is that the original ECU was damaged when the HT Coil failed and the second ECU was damaged because of the same fault still existing on the HT Coil (the replacement ECU sparked the plugs initially but sparking failed after the bike was put back together).
I have advised Dave not to replace the ECU again without first replacing the HT Coil with a new one.


PS:
I have recently started a thread on here titled 'Modern Diagnostic Testing' which can be found at: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=27587

Please feel free to post in this thread, or in a new thread of your own, details of the diagnostic test equipment your company has and what equipment you think might be useful to BMW owners.
It would be helpful for everyone here to know what models the diagnostic test equipment will work on, what it does and an approximate cost of basic equipment and extras.
If you have any videos of the equipment being used then links to that would also be appreciated.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
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Re: loss of spark

Postby dave c » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:34 pm

First of all many thanks to grant at gendan today for spending time to look at my bike and the fantastic obd he sells also the oscilloscope which plugs in to a laptop, excellent equiptment. I am sure grant can give you prices if you contact him. he says the main advantage over the gs-911 is his obd will do all models of bmw and lots more.
Any way no luck today even with a substitute coil so as ced has suggested the damage may have already been done by the original coil and the ECU's will need to be checked out, which will probably be my next step.

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Re: loss of spark

Postby Mjolinor » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:31 am

I can't reply to PMs though I do receive them. I can't get emails through the forum but I think I can send them. To that end I have PM'd you and emailed you with an email address and postal address. If you don't get them you can PM me again and I will get it then find another solution.

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Re: loss of spark

Postby dave c » Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:04 pm

OK yes I got your address, I will pop one in the post tomorrow. many thanks Dave.

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Re: loss of spark

Postby dave c » Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:20 pm

Hi ced one thing keeps nagging my brain it involves the cut out switch by the starter switch, if its not in the central position you cant activate the starter. but when the engine is running and the switch is turned left or right it cuts off the ignition. do you know where it cuts off and any pointers on how to test its making good contact. Dave.

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Re: loss of spark

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:15 pm

Hi Dave,

On your R1150R (and the RT), the Kill Switch cuts the +12v from the Ignition Switch to:
The Starter Relay.
The Motronic Relay.
The Fuel Pump Relay.

If the Kill Switch was faulty (open circuit) you would not be able to crank over the engine so it must be OK.

The Motronic Relay is the critical one as its contact supplies +12v from Fuse #5 to power up the ECU (Motronic 3DENTL Pin 1 Green/Black wire).
The Motronic Relay operates via the Sidestand and Gearbox interlock switches.
With the sidestand UP, an earth is connected to directly operate the Motronic Relay at Ignition ON.
With the Sidestand DOWN, an earth is supplied via the Gearbox Neutral Switch to operate the Motronic Relay at Ignition ON.
The Motronic Relay operation was checked OK in TESTS #1 and #2 on pages 2 & 3.
The Fuel Pump would not run for the initial 2 seconds priming at Ignition ON if the Motronic Relay did not operate correctly to supply power to the ECU (Motronic).
A double-check that the Motronic Relay was powering up the ECU 3DENTL Pin 1 Green/Black wire was made in TEST #8 on page 4.

Download this R1150RT Wiring Diagram by Doug Raymond and you will see how the Kill Switch and Motronic Relay are wired:
https://www.mac-pac.org/tech/electrical-diagrams/
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

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Re: loss of spark

Postby dave c » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:57 pm

OK ced just a thought nagging at my brain. ECU now in post to mjoliner lets see what he finds and take it from there I sent my original ECU as James sherlock supplied the other one and if the bike goes eventually to him it would be unfair to mess with an ECU he supplied as working.
Dave.

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Re: loss of spark

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:33 pm

Hi Dave,

Thank you for the update and thanks to Mjolinor for taking on this task. :smile:

Hopefully Mjolinor can find out if the ECU is indeed kaput and what is wrong.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

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Re: loss of spark

Postby Mjolinor » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:49 pm

Arrived today.

Opened it up and it seems the ignition drive output transistor is a 30046 Darlington transistor. I think this is a Bosch own one and also think I have some somewhere, I have replaced them before on other ECUs. I haven't tested it yet, looking for mine at the moment, lost in the crap in my loft somewhere.

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Re: loss of spark

Postby Mjolinor » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:29 pm

Found them but they are not 30046, they are 30021. They do the same job but I am not sure if they are equivalent as I cannot find a datasheet for the 30046. I will keep looking.

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Re: loss of spark

Postby Mjolinor » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:54 pm

Is the pin with the black arrow the spark output pin?
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Re: loss of spark

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:54 pm

Good man Mjolinor!

Here is all I have got on this so far off USA Ebay:
2pc BOSCH Darlington High Voltage Power NPN Transistor 30046, (same as BU931Z, BU931ZP ), Ignition Coil Driver
350v 10A TO-220
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!


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