loss of spark

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Mjolinor
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Re: loss of spark

Postby Mjolinor » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:39 pm

12. ECU Throttle Position Sensor voltage when Throttle Closed - tested OK.
I think that this should be tested more. Voltages from "pin 9 to ground (P2)" plus "pin 5 to ground (P1)" should always be the same as the voltage on pin 3 to ground (DKP+). It needs testing at various throttle positions. If either of these signals is incorrect I think the ECU will disable spark as a safety feature.

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Galactic Greyhound
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Re: loss of spark

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:15 pm

12. ECU Throttle Position Sensor voltage when Throttle Closed - tested OK.
I think that this should be tested more. Voltages from "pin 9 to ground (P2)" plus "pin 5 to ground (P1)" should always be the same as the voltage on pin 3 to ground (DKP+). It needs testing at various throttle positions. If either of these signals is incorrect I think the ECU will disable spark as a safety feature.

Worth a try! :smile:
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

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Re: loss of spark

Postby dave c » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:24 pm

OK guys you are really doing some head scratching now. Had a chat with my electrician mate this evening and he is having a couple of weeks off at Christmas and he has suggested I drop the bike over to his house and stick it in his garage and he can spend some time going over it as he has only had a brief look at it previously.
He has an oscilloscope and he wants to test the pulses coming from the hall sensor, so I will wait till he gives me the all clear to bring the bike over and see what he finds, he has read the postings on the forum and I will tell him to have another look and see what ideas you guys are having.
His name is peter and he may come on here and ask some questions.
meanwhile I have bought myself a new little project its a moto guzzi v7 classic in pearl white its been in a crash and needs some cosmetic repairs but I am glad to say its a runner hooray!!!!

Mjolinor
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Re: loss of spark

Postby Mjolinor » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:10 am

Do you want to send me the other ECU? I can't remember the tale with it, are you intending to send it back where it came from?

I just thought that if your mate is there with the bike and is an electrician then if the other ECU is here I can buzz things out internally and give you the resistance values and so on to assist. If he is OK with PCBs then there is no point but if he is an electrician only and not a hobby type electronics then it will help.

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Galactic Greyhound
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Re: loss of spark

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:20 pm

Dave/Mjolinor,

Dave has previously purchased a MotosScan Diagnostic Tester and, with his electrical friend Peter coming round to help, I think it would be a good idea to use this tool to its maximum in terms of reading actual Fault Codes which may be present and Real Time Data on the HES sensors.
Note that the engine MUST be cranked over for a few seconds immediately prior (without switching the Ignition Off) to reading Fault Codes or residual HES Fault Codes will be displayed.

I suspect that being a new diagnostic tool, Dave may not have fully gone into all the functions available to him with this tool.
I assume that all the necessary tool support equipment to do this has already been acquired i.e.

1. An Android Smartphone or tablet with Android version 4.3 or higher.
2. Diagnostic adapter.
3. 10-pole cable.
4. The MotoScan app. (An appropriate version of the App is required to be purchased/downloaded which covers the required range of functions required by the user - the most important function in this forum situation is the ability to read Real Time Data'.

See link 'https://www.motoscan.de/2018/02/18/was- ... -diagnose/' re the above.
(The site is in German so use Google Chrome or Windows 10 browsers which offer a 'Translate' function.)


Here is the MotoScan link page for an R1150R using the Motronic MA2.4 ECU with the available MotoScan functions listed which includes Real Time Data:
https://www.motoscan.de/motorsteuerung-kwp-ma24/


Dave: You need to check that the App version you have purchased/downloaded is the one which supports the reading of 'Real Time Data'.
Then you need to do a bit of reading up on how to use this function particularly in how to read the Upper HES Ignition sensor Real Time Data BEFORE your friend Peter arrives to assist so that his time is not wasted in finding out how to do this.


Here is the Motoscan link page for what 'R-Series' bikes are supported by MotoScan - click on 'details' to see the functions supported:
https://www.motoscan.de/unterstuetzte-b ... R-Baureihe

Here is the link to the MotoScan Home page :
https://www.motoscan.de/
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

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Re: loss of spark

Postby dave c » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:20 pm

Hi MJ I haven't decided what to do with the old ECU at the moment, if it is faulty then its going back to James Sherlock as I paid £100 for it. if its tampered with I can kiss that money goodbye. I going to let my mate spend some time with the bike he is much better with electrics than me. and will take it from there.
Dave.

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Galactic Greyhound
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Re: loss of spark

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:21 pm

Dave,

Further to my previous post, I was searching for an archived post by 'roger 04 rt' on the BMWSportTouring forum where, a few years back, he described using a GS-911 to acquire Real Time Data from his R1150RT which he displayed in graphic form on his PC.

During my search, I came across the following recent post ('Still not running') on that forum which has similar characteristics to your own situation:
http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/u ... 050&page=1
Note however that the problem bike is a 2004 TWIN-SPARK R1150RT unlike your 2002 Single-Spark R1150R so the Wiring Diagram will differ in some ways from yours but otherwise much the same but be careful when comparing the ECU pin numbers/wire colours because of this.

You will note when going through the 5 pages that the very knowledgeable 'dirtrider' and 'roger 04 rt' both submitted comments.

One comment on pages 2 & 3 which raised a flag when I read it, was where 'roger 04 rt' advised dumping the Real Time Values to a CSV file and the checking of the Motronic ECU voltages.
These voltages appeared to be lower than normal when the bike was running and a poor earth return or Motronic relay contact was suspected as the cause of the voltage drop.

During the testing (Tests #1, #2, #7 & #8), we checked your Motronic relay contact voltage and the ECU voltages/earths BUT this was not under normal battery loading as the bike was not running so it is worth looking at this circuit again.
I think you may have swapped the Motronic relay with the Horn relay during testing so this would eliminate a faulty Motronic relay contact but would still leave a faulty (high resistance) earth return as a possibility.

If you can therefore manage to set up reading the Real Time Data (and maybe capture to a csv file), also have a good look at the voltages supplied to the ECU to make sure that none are showing below 12.0v.

LATER EDIT: While searching for MotoScan Real Time Data links I came across this CNET download link which gives a bit more info on using the MotoScan App for this purpose:

https://download.cnet.com/MotoScan-for- ... 44344.html

I would however ONLY download the required MotoScan App from the Google Play Store as CNET might bundle other unwanted software with its downloads if you do not notice the additional pre-ticked download box during installation.

The biggest problem with the MotoScan App seems to be that, while its basic functions can be displayed in English, the higher functions such as Real Time Data are only displayed in German.

If you have problems reading the Real Time Data using the MotoScan then, consider joining the BMW Club UK for around £40/annum.
The Club has a Members Tool Hire service for around £5 + p&p per item.
This service includes the excellent HexCode GS911 scanner which will read the Real Time Data from all of your sensors and let you determine the cause of the problem very quickly.

I think that this may be the best solution to the current situation.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

dave c
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Re: loss of spark

Postby dave c » Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:59 pm

Hi Ced, I will get my mate peter to read the latest posts and if he thinks its a good idea get the gs 911. so I wont be touching the bike at the moment as I am waiting for peter to give me the go ahead to drop the bike over.
Cheers Dave.

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Froglodyte
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Re: loss of spark

Postby Froglodyte » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:43 pm

Dave, was the ignition firing before you changed the starter motor?

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Galactic Greyhound
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Re: loss of spark

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:33 pm

Dave/Peter,

For info:

The following Subaru car diagnostic video explains how a spark is generated from the HT coil (primary), Igniter and ECU (Motronic).

NOTES:
1. Two coil primaries are shown - only one coil primary is used on your R1150R HT coil which has twin HT outputs (one at each end of the Secondary winding).

2. Two Igniter coil driver transistors are shown - only one coil driver transistor is used on your R1150R. Your Igniter (driver transistor) is built into the Motronic ECU and the earth output to fire the coil is from ECU pin 35 (Z1) Black wire.

3. Note how a missing earth or high resistance earth to the Igniter will cause a loss of spark.
Although the earths to the ECU were tested on your bike, a more thorough investigation might be done here by measuring the actual resistance of the earth wires to the ECU pins 21 & 34 (Brown wires) AND also by supplying a direct earth from the Battery Negative (earth) terminal to each ECU pin earth connection (Brown wires) in turn while checking for a spark - see the R1150RT Single Spark Wiring Diagram.

YouTube video - ScannerDanner - 'Subaru No Spark Diagnosis':
https://youtu.be/LdnnFD6J8Uo
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

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Re: loss of spark

Postby dave c » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:26 pm

Hi froglodyte just noticed your post and yes all was ok until I changed the starter motor.
Dave.

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Froglodyte
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Re: loss of spark

Postby Froglodyte » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:05 am

I have to suspect that you disturbed something when changing the starter. As an ex aircraft electrician, I'm well aware of crazy things happening after a component change. I would be looking very closely at wiring and connections in the vicinity of where you have been working. Other unrelated items just don't stop working. Check for loose, damaged wiring or rubber joints (by that, I mean the inner wire has broken while the outer covering is intact).

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Froglodyte
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Re: loss of spark

Postby Froglodyte » Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:04 am

Dave, the 1150rt wiring diagram supplied by Ced appears to have different coloured wires to those on your R model. You need to get the correct diagram. I have an 850R and the wiring is different to the rt and rs models. You cannot fault find with the wrong diagrams.According to Ced's drawing, there is an earth on the sidestand switch which makes when the stand is up. When the switch makes, it connects the earth side of the Motronic relay power supply. If the earth is lost, the Motronic unit will not power up and therefore no spark. I would make this the priority to check first. It would have been very easy to disturb this earth when removing the starter. Get yourself a Haynes manual for Xmas.

Mjolinor
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Re: loss of spark

Postby Mjolinor » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:06 am

Get yourself a Haynes manual for Xmas.
That is probably a good start to knowing how it isn't wired. :)

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Froglodyte
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Re: loss of spark

Postby Froglodyte » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:27 am

Ok. Make it a Clymer

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Froglodyte
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Re: loss of spark

Postby Froglodyte » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:49 pm

OK. My final thoughts....

The engine was firing before removal of the starter motor
After removal & refit, there is no spark
I find it hard to believe that during the removal/refit either the Motronic unit, HES or ignition coil failed (when presumably the power was off)
The only ignition related item in the vicinity of the starter is the sidestand switch and associated wiring
It is possible that damage may have occurred during the removal/refit
Despite Ced's thorough wiring checks no other faults have been found

To quote Ced
"If you look at the posted R1150RT Starter Diagram you will observe that the Sidestand Switch is ONLY connected to the Motronic Relay and so will NOT prevent the engine from turning over if the Starter Button is pressed.
A faulty Sidestand Switch WILL however prevent Fuelling and Ignition from taking place by the Motronic Relay not being operated."

Boxer11002198
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Re: loss of spark

Postby Boxer11002198 » Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:42 am

Here is my 5 Pennith!
I bought an R1100RT 1996 about 4 years back.
At first it had an occasional fault where it lost power & sent a huge flame from the exhaust. I consulted this group of wizards. In the Finnish, on their advice I bought an HES, via EBAY, from a GREEK source for , wait for it........, £89 .00. It didn't cure the problem......... SO. ..... More advice led me to purchase a second hand COIL...... Bingo !!!
Instant success!! The GREEK HE'S was easy to fit & has given faultless service for 11000 miles. .SO has the coil. Try to get another genuine BMW coil. It might solve the problem. If not , then try a GREEK HES. I don't know your mileage or year but. If it has done more than about 19000, which mine had done, then there is every chance that the wireing insulation has had it. Hardened & wrong spec insulation used on build. Good luck. Please continue to keep us informed. They are great bikes when they run properly. I LOVE mine. I am 73 in Feb. SO far the bike has done 30000. genuine from new. I do about 3000 a year. Chris
R1100RT 1996 19000miles Fom new at purchase .Now 24000 @9 th July.
Triumph Sprint ST 2001 Sold
BMW K1100RS 1995 Sold
Triumph Bonneville T140v 1973 Wish I had never Sold it !!!


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