Electronic upgrade ignition

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Jon K
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Re: Electronic upgrade ignition

Postby Jon K » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:18 pm

Quick update:

She fires again thanks to Dave (Warmshed) who came to my rescue with his knowledge and skill.

It turned out the new ICU had packed up. Once we refitted my original ICU and bean can all was sweet again.

Dave, you’re a legend mate!

Motorworks, we shall be having words...


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Re: Electronic upgrade ignition

Postby Mjolinor » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:08 pm

Hmm, it seems your ICU (ignition control unit) is in need of an ICU (intensive care unit). :)

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Rob Frankhamr
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Re: Electronic upgrade ignition

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:30 pm

I'm pretty sure that this is a known issue with the early Boyer Bransden units and that there is a work around. Do some research on the web or, if all else fails, give BB a call. IIRC it's a simple wiring fix.

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Re: Electronic upgrade ignition

Postby barryh » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:43 pm

I've got a vague recollection of an issue with the engine continuing to run when the ignition is switched off. The crazy solution suggested by Boyer Bransden was something like press the brake pedal. I might have the detail wrong but if it is then the fault and proposed solution was equally bizarre.

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Re: Electronic upgrade ignition

Postby warmshed » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:17 pm

It was not a boyer system, its a Siemens (red centre, Alpha) replacement unit and electronic ICU. The ICU is definitely toast. I believe Motoworks are sole UK distributor. I know when these units were first out they had problems but the revised units were supposed to be very good. Anyone on here used them for single or dual plugged Airhead?
https://www.motorworks.co.uk/vlive/Shop ... 5_20_IA_40

http://www.motoelekt.com/ignition.htm

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Rob Frankhamr
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Re: Electronic upgrade ignition

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:42 pm

It was not a boyer system, its a Siemens (red centre, Alpha) replacement unit and electronic ICU. The ICU is definitely toast. I believe Motoworks are sole UK distributor. I know when these units were first out they had problems but the revised units were supposed to be very good. Anyone on here used them for single or dual plugged Airhead?
https://www.motorworks.co.uk/vlive/Shop ... 5_20_IA_40

http://www.motoelekt.com/ignition.htm
Apologies, my post was intended as a response to this one further up the thread...
Far from pulling 8 amps my R75/7 with a 20 year old analog Boyer and Dyna coil runs with the ignition switched off.
Neutral light is on too, but faint.
Anyone any idea where the problem might be before I start pulling things apart, the thought of digging around in the birds nest in the headlight shell isn't to appealing!
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Re: Electronic upgrade ignition

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:27 pm

by Roy Gavin » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:14 pm
Far from pulling 8 amps my R75/7 with a 20 year old analog Boyer and Dyna coil runs with the ignition switched off.
Neutral light is on too, but faint.
Anyone any idea where the problem might be before I start pulling things apart, the thought of digging around in the birds nest in the headlight shell isn't to appealing!

Roy,

Could you start a new thread on this problem please as it is different from the original thread.

Also, what year is your R75/7 and please expand on the Neutral Light situation.

Thanks! :smile:
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Re: Electronic upgrade ignition

Postby Jon K » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:36 pm

Yeah, ya hijacker! ;)

Thanks everyone by the way, I wish I could buy you all a pint.


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Re: Electronic upgrade ignition

Postby Roy Gavin » Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:34 am

Sorry about the thread hijack,but everyone was here, and it was slightly related.
Been to Boyer's site, all I could get is that they pull 18 watts or 1 1/2 amps.
And they like 21 watt tail light bulbs with wires soldered on as test lamps too.
Rear brake light on some bikes comes off the same switch terminal as the ignition, so activating the brake could drain the phantom volts. And if you loose your key or want to
bypass the switch a jump lead from the battery to the live side of the switch can work too.
Bike is a 77 - no clutch interlock switch.

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Re: Electronic upgrade ignition

Postby warmshed » Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:07 pm

You may wish to see a video that shows the new ignition systems, listed here as red centre but sold in the UK as Siemens. https://www.facebook.com/Boxerworks/vid ... 086292918/

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Re: Electronic upgrade ignition

Postby Jon K » Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:17 pm

Interesting video Dave. Motorworks have agreed to accept my stuff back, but watching your video makes me wonder if I’m doing the right thing returning to original. Ah what the hell, I can always buy another one at a later date.

The bike got home from Basildon without incident, and then to and from again today. So far so good. Thanks again mate.

Jon


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Re: Electronic upgrade ignition

Postby warmshed » Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:10 am

You could just get the ICU replaced, As you have electronic ignition the main advantage of the new system is the replacement of the mechanical advance and retard bob weights. If you do have wear then it can affect tickover and slow running. Easy change of the hall trigger is also worthwhile. Should you have problems with the new ICU you could back it all then. It may just be that you have just been unlucky and got a faulty one, certainly they have been used and got good results in America and Australia. Dave.
Last edited by warmshed on Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Electronic upgrade ignition

Postby Jon K » Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:13 am

I like the sound of ‘boob weights’ :)


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Re: Electronic upgrade ignition

Postby warmshed » Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:38 am

Yes I agree, but I have now edited it to stop people laughing.

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Re: Electronic upgrade ignition

Postby Mjolinor » Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:14 am

Yes I agree, but I have now edited it to stop people laughing.
Why? :)

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Re: Electronic upgrade ignition

Postby warmshed » Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:05 pm

Because I made a boob.

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Re: Electronic upgrade ignition

Postby Mjolinor » Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:24 pm

Because I made a boob.
A friend of mine just had one made. She had one removed and they made it out of the muscle in her back. It is quiet amazing really, you can't tell to look at them but she says her back hurts if you touch it. Very strange. I suppose she will get used to it as the brain reteaches itself and learns.

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Re: Electronic upgrade ignition

Postby PhilO » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:11 am

I have very little faith in electronic ignition conversions. I have returned a few bikes so aflicted back to points and capacitor and solved a lot of problems. Electronic ignition is not a roadside fix.

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Re: Electronic upgrade ignition

Postby Roy Gavin » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:28 am

Never had any problems with reliability with electronic ignition, either on my bikes or my cars.
You have to follow the instructions, of course, something which most motorcyclists seem reluctant to do, to the extent that Boyer now include coils, leads and plug caps in their kits.
Economics come into it too- the cost of replacing worn out points system only is a fair bit more than a new Boyer system which includes coils and the better performance is just a Bonus.

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Re: Electronic upgrade ignition

Postby windmill john » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:50 am

Never had any problems with reliability with electronic ignition, either on my bikes or my cars.
You have to follow the instructions, of course, something which most motorcyclists seem reluctant to do, to the extent that Boyer now include coils, leads and plug caps in their kits.
Economics come into it too- the cost of replacing worn out points system only is a fair bit more than a new Boyer system which includes coils and the better performance is just a Bonus.

Not to be flippant or rude Roy, but I've never heard of anyone needing to replace everything at the same time! points, condenser, diode board, alternator, coils....

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Re: Electronic upgrade ignition

Postby Mjolinor » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:22 am


Not to be flippant or rude Roy, but I've never heard of anyone needing to replace everything at the same time! points, condenser, diode board, alternator, coils....

John
Lightning strike can do that but in truth you would probably have more things to worry about than not starting or charging should it happen while riding. :)

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Re: Electronic upgrade ignition

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:33 am

I have very little faith in electronic ignition conversions. I have returned a few bikes so aflicted back to points and capacitor and solved a lot of problems. Electronic ignition is not a roadside fix.

I have to say that I disagree with you on that one. If you carry a spare ECU and Bean can (not that I do), electonic ignition failure is as easy to fix at the roadside, if not easier, than points. If you don't carry a spare set of points (which I don't) then points ignition is not a roadside fix. It's all down to which spares you choose to carry with you and which you don't.

For my part, I've long since come to the conclusion that you can carry as many spare parts as you like, Sods Law says that the bit that breaks will be the one you aren't carrying. For this reason (among others) I rely mainly on the universal plastic toolkit (AA card). If I were travelling extensively abroad. I would re-think the strategy but somewhere in the plans, there would definitely be a competent recovery service.

Getting back to the age old electronic/points discussion. There are a couple of points the 'pro-points' protagonists consistently fail to acknowledge:


  1. Modern electronic ignition systems are very reliable. There are many airheads out there that are still using the ECU and bean can they were fitted with on the production line. No one would ever think of claiming that for points.

    ­
  2. An electronic system is a set and forget solution, especially one that has electronically controlled advance. Even in the Bosch setup used by BMW, maintenence is reduced to oiling the advance mechanism at fairly well drawn out intervals and this can be done without disturbing the timing. In real terms, routine maintenance is limited to sticking a strobe on it to make sure it's right. Points, by contrast, require regular servicing and replacement together with re-timing and dwell setting.

    ­
  3. When a points ignition is set up, it is probably almost as efficient as an electronic system... but... from that moment, the efficiency decreases progressively with use until the next service. This means that the performance of your bike is worsening probably imperceptibly but nonetheless progressively over the period between services

Don't get me wrong, I've nothing against a properly maintained points ignition system but, to my mind, a properly designed electronic system has very definite advantages.

Rob
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Re: Electronic upgrade ignition

Postby Jon K » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:36 am

Oiling the advance mechanism? I didn’t know that needed doing.

Is it easy? How do I do it?


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Re: Electronic upgrade ignition

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:01 am

Oiling the advance mechanism? I didn’t know that needed doing.

Is it easy? How do I do it?


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First check that it's working OK... rig up a strobe and check the advance events... does it move smoothly from idle to full advance and back again?

If not, I'd advise removing the bean can then cleaning and checking the advance unit.

If it's working OK, then all that's needed is a periodic squirt of light oil.

Access is via a sheet metal 'cover' on the side of the casting. This can be prised out with a screwdriver then the tube of an aerosol light oil can inserted. A very brief squirt is all that's needed.

Make sure you replace the cover afterwards.

Rob
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Re: Electronic upgrade ignition

Postby Jon K » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:04 pm

Cheers Rob, much appreciated


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