Front Wheel Removal

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CharlieVictor
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Front Wheel Removal

Postby CharlieVictor » Tue May 19, 2020 7:59 am

R100S 1978

I have never bothered removing the calipers in order to remove the front wheel. As I have to do it again to get a new post-lockdown, long due tire installed, I was wondering if this was really the best/easiest technique...

Granted it's a pain to re-fit the wheel as well as realign the calipers, but on the other hand, no adjustment is needed, the calipers and wheel just get back into their previous positions.

What do you say?
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Re: Front Wheel Removal

Postby John Marshall » Thu May 21, 2020 6:23 am

When I had my R100RS with twin ATE callipers I seem to recall that getting the tyre past was tricky. Funny think is I have already forgotten if I needed to remove one calliper.
Getting the discs back in on the other had was often difficult as the pads used to move And that rusty little paper clip thing would come off as well.

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Re: Front Wheel Removal

Postby vmx1200 » Thu May 21, 2020 11:15 am

Personally if as you say the wheel has not been off since the last tyre change I would remover the calipers as it would be an opportunity to clean and grease the caliper swing pivots as the calipers need to move freely.

I have replaced the wheel beside the road with the calipers in situ but it is a PITA with much bad language
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Re: Front Wheel Removal

Postby CharlieVictor » Thu May 21, 2020 1:44 pm

When I had my R100RS with twin ATE callipers I seem to recall that getting the tyre past was tricky. Funny think is I have already forgotten if I needed to remove one calliper.
Getting the discs back in on the other had was often difficult as the pads used to move And that rusty little paper clip thing would come off as well.
Thanks John,
Yes re-installing the wheel alone is a PITA with the calipers on. Well I might not have any choice as after removing the wheel I found out one piston was seized. So it would appear it's been a while I was braking on one disc only... :???:
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Re: Front Wheel Removal

Postby Artie McMurray » Thu May 21, 2020 10:34 pm

Just a little thing that I’ve done and I think it makes the job easier, for me anyhow.
I’ve made two little hard wood wedges that replicate the width of the discs, they are drilled and have a little cable tie inserted in the hole. When the calliper is being removed from the disc I slip the wedge in to keep the pads “open” but position them so that the discs can be slipped back in again. Then pull the wedge out the back using the cable tie.
The wedges are made of some sort of hard so that with a touch with a hammer or some such won’t break them, they don’t normally need much persuasion when putting them in. Then the wedges are safely stowed with the tool roll just in case.
Don’t know if this makes sense but my text finger thinks so !!
Artie

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CharlieVictor
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Re: Front Wheel Removal

Postby CharlieVictor » Fri May 22, 2020 8:17 am

That's exactly what I did the last time around... Minus the cable tie :smile:

I'm having another problem with a seized caliper now. I thought I had fixed it but obviously it came back.

Worst part is the 19mm bolt holding the caliper axle won't budge... The piston is out by approx 2mm, creating undue friction, and it's seized, to the point where I must have been riding with only one operating disc for a while.... :oops:

Any idea how to unstuck the axle bolt without risking damages? I drowned it in WD40 yesterday, I haven't tried yet this morning.
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Re: Front Wheel Removal

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Fri May 22, 2020 10:11 am

That's exactly what I did the last time around... Minus the cable tie :smile:

I'm having another problem with a seized caliper now. I thought I had fixed it but obviously it came back.

Worst part is the 19mm bolt holding the caliper axle won't budge... The piston is out by approx 2mm, creating undue friction, and it's seized, to the point where I must have been riding with only one operating disc for a while.... :oops:

Any idea how to unstuck the axle bolt without risking damages? I drowned it in WD40 yesterday, I haven't tried yet this morning.


WD40 (if by WD40, you mean the classic 1950s formulation) is just about one stage better than nothing for freeing seized or galled bolts. You need, in the first instance, a good penetrant lubricant. The classic Plus Gas is very good and there are a number of other good formulations including one, marketed under the WD40 name. If that fails, an application of heat to the alloy might free crack the galling and allow the bolt to move... you probably won't want to use a flame but a heat gun will do the job... while the use of an air driven impact wrench will often jar a recalcutrant bolt free. If you don't have access to such a wrench, it may be worth finding a workshop locally where they are willing to use their impact driver to free the bolt. At the end of the day, you may have to bite the bullet and drill the bolt out... [-o<

Damage is a different matter, it is likely that there is already damage to the bolt and the alloy of the leg simply due to the chemical effects of the galling. It probably won't be terminal but you will need to check the threads to ensure they are still serviceable. In any case, I would always recommend running a thread clearing tap through the hole and, if you are re-using the bolt, a die down the bolt thread. There will have been some damage, even if not much. If the bolt head is damaged, replace the bolt to make life easier next time. Finally of course, always use some antiseize paste when reassembling.

Sorry, no magic bullet

Rob
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Re: Front Wheel Removal

Postby vmx1200 » Fri May 22, 2020 11:32 am

Hi CV when you say
Worst part is the 19mm bolt holding the caliper axle won't budge...
Are you referring to the cap (with spring) on the bottom of the fork leg that you remove to get to the eccentric adjuster?

I used a socket and an 18v hammer drill to loosen mine, I had to cut an old extension to fit the chuck

I think you could rebuild the caliper in situ if the bore is ok and you just need seals or seals and piston
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Re: Front Wheel Removal

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Fri May 22, 2020 12:02 pm

Hi CV when you say
Worst part is the 19mm bolt holding the caliper axle won't budge...
Are you referring to the cap (with spring) on the bottom of the fork leg that you remove to get to the eccentric adjuster?

I used a socket and an 18v hammer drill to loosen mine, I had to cut an old extension to fit the chuck

I think you could rebuild the caliper in situ if the bore is ok and you just need seals or seals and piston


Do you mean an impact driver or a hammer drill... they are different things. With a hammer drill, the bolt needs to be moving before the hammering action will take place. with an impact driver, the hammering effect take place even when the bolt (for example) is stationary. The former is good for masonry drills, the latter is much better for moving recalcitrant bolts.

Rob
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Re: Front Wheel Removal

Postby CharlieVictor » Fri May 22, 2020 1:15 pm

That's exactly what I did the last time around... Minus the cable tie :smile:

I'm having another problem with a seized caliper now. I thought I had fixed it but obviously it came back.

Worst part is the 19mm bolt holding the caliper axle won't budge... The piston is out by approx 2mm, creating undue friction, and it's seized, to the point where I must have been riding with only one operating disc for a while.... :oops:

Any idea how to unstuck the axle bolt without risking damages? I drowned it in WD40 yesterday, I haven't tried yet this morning.


WD40 (if by WD40, you mean the classic 1950s formulation) is just about one stage better than nothing for freeing seized or galled bolts. You need, in the first instance, a good penetrant lubricant. The classic Plus Gas is very good and there are a number of other good formulations including one, marketed under the WD40 name. If that fails, an application of heat to the alloy might free crack the galling and allow the bolt to move... you probably won't want to use a flame but a heat gun will do the job... while the use of an air driven impact wrench will often jar a recalcutrant bolt free. If you don't have access to such a wrench, it may be worth finding a workshop locally where they are willing to use their impact driver to free the bolt. At the end of the day, you may have to bite the bullet and drill the bolt out... [-o<

Damage is a different matter, it is likely that there is already damage to the bolt and the alloy of the leg simply due to the chemical effects of the galling. It probably won't be terminal but you will need to check the threads to ensure they are still serviceable. In any case, I would always recommend running a thread clearing tap through the hole and, if you are re-using the bolt, a die down the bolt thread. There will have been some damage, even if not much. If the bolt head is damaged, replace the bolt to make life easier next time. Finally of course, always use some antiseize paste when reassembling.

Sorry, no magic bullet

Rob
Hi Rob,

Thanks for the extensive explanations... I was expecting something like that... :neutral:
A neighbor of mine has an impact wrench, I'll reinstall the wheel and try to get the bike to limp that far. Thanks a mil again.
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Re: Front Wheel Removal

Postby CharlieVictor » Fri May 22, 2020 3:44 pm

Hi CV when you say
Worst part is the 19mm bolt holding the caliper axle won't budge...
Are you referring to the cap (with spring) on the bottom of the fork leg that you remove to get to the eccentric adjuster?

I used a socket and an 18v hammer drill to loosen mine, I had to cut an old extension to fit the chuck

I think you could rebuild the caliper in situ if the bore is ok and you just need seals or seals and piston
Yes that's the one. Left leg's unscrewed just fine, right leg caliper piston is seized and the cap won't move. Cause and consequence probably. ](*,)
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Re: Front Wheel Removal

Postby JaggeryJoe » Sat May 23, 2020 12:25 pm

After my bike had been standing in a damp woodshed for years, those threads that had not been treated with copper grease were very corroded. I had great success with plus gas. I had to apply it a couple of times and to wait a couple of days for it to completely penetrate but not one did not eventually yield and without damage. It is not an instant remedy, you do have to wait.

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Re: Front Wheel Removal

Postby CharlieVictor » Sat May 23, 2020 1:51 pm

After my bike had been standing in a damp woodshed for years, those threads that had not been treated with copper grease were very corroded. I had great success with plus gas. I had to apply it a couple of times and to wait a couple of days for it to completely penetrate but not one did not eventually yield and without damage. It is not an instant remedy, you do have to wait.
Thanks Jag. I'll keep in mind if the impact wrench doesn't do the job.
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Re: Front Wheel Removal

Postby Roy Gavin » Sun May 24, 2020 4:28 am

If the bolt and caliper have both stuck you probably have corrosion in more than one location, caliper and threads at least.
We can still buy the old Nutcracker formulation here, sold under the Masterproducts brand, and it works at least as well as anything else I have tried.
First I would try and release the caliper on the pivot. -
The suggestion is to use a hammer drill at its highest speed with a brass drift on the chuck, as you spray with the release fluid , is based on the belief that the high speed vibration helps draw the fluid into the corroded part and helps break the bond, so I would try the drift either side if the caliper alternately to see if you can get the caliper to pivot.
Then try the same treatment on a well soaked spindle , vibrating the head while trying to turn it with a spanner.
It has never failed to work for me.
FWIW the same principle is used when installing piles below water - rather than banging then in with a five ton weight a cap vibrating at 30,000 rpm is placed on the pile and with light pressure the pile just vanishes into the ground.
We drove around 600 18" timber piles into saturated limestone in six weeks on a marina where previous attempts to hammer them in had failed due to damage to the piles.

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Re: Front Wheel Removal

Postby CharlieVictor » Sun May 24, 2020 9:32 am

Thanks Roy.
The caliper rotates well on the pivot. The piston does not release however, and remains 2mm above the dust seal, squeezing the disc.

I have re-installed the wheel without the wheel-side pad. It screws up the braking performance but frees up the wheel thus allowing me to ride the bike to my neighbor's tomorrow (here it means a few miles :smile: !)

Lots of good solutions here... One has got to work !! Thank you all. I'll keep you posted Monday or Tuesday.
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Re: Front Wheel Removal

Postby vmx1200 » Sun May 24, 2020 12:01 pm

I have re-installed the wheel without the wheel-side pad. It screws up the braking performance but frees up the wheel thus allowing me to ride the bike to my neighbor's tomorrow (here it means a few miles :smile: !)
:shock: Take care CV we will miss you if you end up in hospital. If something happens and you try an emergency stop the piston might shoot out of the caliper #-o

On a more practical note has you considered using a G clamp to try pushing the piston back in to release it? My thinking on this is the bore behind the piston may be in better condition, once you free it you may then be able to force it out using compressed air

Of course if you do manage to get the piston out and rebuilt the caliper you wont be able to adjust it without removing the 19 mm cap.

Another strange thought (must be lock down) have you thought of somehow putting the fork leg in boiling water if you haven't got a hot air gun? The alloy should expand faster than the steel cap. Finally have you tried heating it and give it a sharp clout in the tightening direction?
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Re: Front Wheel Removal

Postby Tincan3 » Sun May 24, 2020 12:21 pm

"I have re-installed the wheel without the wheel-side pad. It screws up the braking performance but frees up the wheel . . . "
Won't the piston still come out when you brake?
I had one brake pad of four run to the metal with more than 100 miles to the nearest stockist (in France). This was on a Kawasaki GT550 with double front disc. After an hour or two of driving I realised that grease on the appropriate disc surface would enable front brake use and that worked fine until I reached Lyon. Where, incidentally, the dealer was useless but a local biker directed me to Dardilly (?) on the outskirts where there are a number of bike shops.

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Re: Front Wheel Removal

Postby CharlieVictor » Sun May 24, 2020 1:59 pm

Thanks for your concern guys.... Greatly appreciated

No, the wheel-side pad doesn't seem to have any moving component. The whole caliper exerts the braking movement, doesn't it?
I just quickly tested it down the road and besides some friction noise (the off-side pad still rubs since the piston is out, but without a pad on the wheel side it doesn't hold/lock the wheel) and very little front brake, it went ok. Not even any damage marks on the disc.

Again it's a temporary fix to get to my neighbor's and try those various solutions...
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Re: Front Wheel Removal

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Mon May 25, 2020 9:45 am

I have to say I wouldn't be happy at all to ride the bike with the pad missing. Even if the piston seems immovable, a sudden brake application might well force the piston against the disc. Can I suggest the following ideas...

1) With the wheel out, try using a G cramp or a woodworking cramp to force the piston back. This may even restore partial function to the brake but I would still advise you to strip the caliper and repair it...

2) Remove the relevant disc from the wheel, put something of suitable thickness between the pads and tape it in place for the journey to your friends...

3) Drop the fork leg out completely and take it to your friends using other transport,

Rob
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Re: Front Wheel Removal

Postby CharlieVictor » Mon May 25, 2020 3:44 pm

Rob,

Thanks again for your concern... You are absolutely right, but that's not what I have done:

I have to say I wouldn't be happy at all to ride the bike with the pad missing. Even if the piston seems immovable, a sudden brake application might well force the piston against the disc. Can I suggest the following ideas...
The pad piston-side was still on, so the piston could not push against the disc. It's the other one I had removed to free the wheel up.

1) With the wheel out, try using a G cramp or a woodworking cramp to force the piston back. This may even restore partial function to the brake but I would still advise you to strip the caliper and repair it...
I had tried that, it didn't work and I didn't dare forcing the piston in more.

2) Remove the relevant disc from the wheel, put something of suitable thickness between the pads and tape it in place for the journey to your friends...
Good idea, but i already rode the bike over... All went well, I'm in one piece ! :grin:


We'll work on it later tonite and hopefully it will be back in place for tomorrow.
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Re: Front Wheel Removal

Postby John Marshall » Mon May 25, 2020 4:21 pm

When I removed a fork leg bottom cap I found it easier to grip the flats in a vice and turn the leg. It may work for this stuck pivot pin but you will have to undo the brake pipe and that may be another saga. Penetrating oil again.
What a b*stard though.

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Re: Front Wheel Removal

Postby CharlieVictor » Thu May 28, 2020 4:16 pm

Caliper out.
It took a New-York minute with an impact driver... Thanks Rob, yet again ! :lol:

Need to dismantle the whole thing and bleed the system, which I have never done before, and won't have time to attend to until this weekend... ](*,) .

Having one bike out of order just stresses me out. :smt089
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Re: Front Wheel Removal

Postby John Marshall » Thu May 28, 2020 5:02 pm

Glad it came out. Maybe the pin end was seizing in the leg.
I have known one bike where you struggled to turn it when adjusting and it needed a good tap with a light hammer to get it back in again.I have had success with a bit of abrasive paper wrapped around a chop stick of all things, to clean out that blind hole.
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Re: Front Wheel Removal

Postby windmill john » Thu May 28, 2020 5:15 pm

Having one bike out of order just stresses me out. :smt089

I remember the butchered quote: ‘A bike on the road is worth two in the shed.’

If ever I have an issue, I resolve it as quick as I can. As very simply another issue can crop up. To the same bike or bike and then things can escalate.
I know in the past I’ve had a couple of niggly issues, but the third issue turns out to stop the bike, hence my approach; fix it now!
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Re: Front Wheel Removal

Postby vmx1200 » Thu May 28, 2020 5:22 pm

Glad to hear it has come apart, have you thought have you are going to get the piston out of the caliper? If you could not move it with a G clamp it may be difficult. I used a compressor to blow mine out but they were not seized.

I expect you will need a caliper rebuild kit as a minimum and maybe a new piston. You might know the front caliper comes in two sizes, a 78 RS should be 40mm, The size is stamped on the outer side of the caliper

I am sure better qualified people than me will offer advice on removing the piston

You will be pleased to know there are 122 search entries on bleeding airhead brakes in the forum :lol:
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