'87 R65 instrument cluster wiring

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Re: '87 R65 instrument cluster wiring

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:44 am

It sounds a little like the connections between the ignition switch and the lighting switches/relays has become mixed up or one of the switches/relays is faulty. Can I ask for a bit more information. The headlight has three seperate filaments in two bulbs... The main beam and the dipped beam in the main H4 bulb and a seperate sidelight (or marker light) bulb. The sidelight bulb also doubles as the parking light. These are the terms used in the UK, you may have different terms...

1) When you refer to the 'headlight' which filament(s) are you referring to? When the headlamp main or dipped beam are on, is the sidelight also on?
2) Is the rear light on when the headlamp is on?
3) Are the instrument lights on when the headlight is on?

The situation should be (assuming a US spec machine) as follows:

a) ignition switch off = no lights
b) Ignition switch to first position - Parking lights - Sidelight bulb and rear light on, instrument lights also on (but not warning lights)
c) Ignition switch to second position - Ignition on - Dip switch to dipped beam - Sidelight bulb, headlamp dipped beam (except when the starter button is pressed), rear light on, instrument light on (any applicable warning lamps on).
d) Ignition switch to second position - Ignition on - Dip switch to main beam - Sidelight bulb, headlamp main beam (except when the starter button is pressed), rear light on, instrument light on (any applicable warning lamps on).
e) Ignition switch to second position - Ignition on - Dip switch to flash - Sidelight bulb, headlamp main beam, rear light on, instrument light on (any applicable warning lamps on).

It is well worth bearing in mind that

i) The 'flash' circuit to the main beam is on a different supply from the 'steady' main beam circuit. This harks back to the euro spec machines with a lights on/off switch where the flash is required to work even when the light switch is set to off. This means that the headlamp working on 'flash' is no guarantee that the main beam circuit is in order (just that the filament works).

ii) Sidelight. rear light and instrument lights are all on the same circuit so when one is on, all should be on.

iii) Headlights are not on a fused circuit but sidelight, rear light and instrument lamps are.

Hope that's of some assistance... If you can come back with the information at the top, I'll try to work out what's going on.

Rob
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Re: '87 R65 instrument cluster wiring

Postby r75boxer » Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:59 pm

Thanks Rob. I am assuming that by side bulb you are referring to the little bulb below the main bulb.

1) When you refer to the 'headlight' which filament(s) are you referring to? The large bulb does not come on unless 'flash' is depressed.
When the headlamp main or dipped beam are on, is the sidelight also on? No.
2) Is the rear light on when the headlamp is on? No.
3) Are the instrument lights on when the headlight is on? No, only in park.

The situation should be (assuming a US spec machine) as follows:

a) ignition switch off = no lights - correct
b) Ignition switch to first position - Parking lights - Sidelight bulb and rear light on, instrument lights also on (but not warning lights) - correct
c) Ignition switch to second position - Ignition on - Dip switch to dipped beam - Sidelight bulb, headlamp dipped beam (except when the starter button is pressed), rear light on, instrument light on (any applicable warning lamps on). - Nothing lights up, front, back or instrument cluster.
d) Ignition switch to second position - Ignition on - Dip switch to main beam - Sidelight bulb, headlamp main beam (except when the starter button is pressed), rear light on, instrument light on (any applicable warning lamps on). - Nothing lights up, front, back or instrument cluster.
e) Ignition switch to second position - Ignition on - Dip switch to flash - Sidelight bulb, headlamp main beam, rear light on, instrument light on (any applicable warning lamps on). - Only headlamp and 'high beam indicator' on dash light up.

It is well worth bearing in mind that

i) The 'flash' circuit to the main beam is on a different supply from the 'steady' main beam circuit. This harks back to the euro spec machines with a lights on/off switch where the flash is required to work even when the light switch is set to off. This means that the headlamp working on 'flash' is no guarantee that the main beam circuit is in order (just that the filament works).

ii) Sidelight. rear light and instrument lights are all on the same circuit so when one is on, all should be on.

iii) Headlights are not on a fused circuit but sidelight, rear light and instrument lamps are.

Kevin
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Re: '87 R65 instrument cluster wiring

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:18 pm

OK, I'm going to stick my neck out and say that the problem is in or around the lighting relay.

Are you able to check the voltages at the relay socket... there are five connections... with the relay disconnected they should read...

terminal 30 - (Red wire) battery voltage permanently
terminal 85 - (green wire)battery voltage with the ignition on
terminal 86 - (Black wire) ground except when the start button is pressed when it should read battery voltage (with ignition on)
terminals 87 (yellow/white wire) and 87b (grey wires) - readings not relevant at this stage...

With the relay connected

terminals 87 (yellow/white wire) and 87b (grey wires)- battery voltage with ignition on
Check that the relay clicks when the ignition is switched on and off.

The answers to these points should establish whether the relay is defective or the problem lies in the wiring up to the relay.

Rob
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Re: '87 R65 instrument cluster wiring

Postby r75boxer » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:33 pm

Rob, I will work through your suggestions and get back to you tomorrow. Thanks again.

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Re: '87 R65 instrument cluster wiring

Postby r75boxer » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:10 pm

Just to be sure that I am working with the right relay, see attached images (I've updated the photos). It's the last in a series of relays going towards the battery. Also, the wires feeding into the socket are as follows:

Grey/white (2), yellow/black, black, green/black, and red.

Relay 1 244 411 and 89 9675


Test results as follows:

Ignition off - power to 30 (red wire) was 12V. With ignition off, no other voltage detected.

Ignition on - power to 30 (12V). No other voltage detected in the socket.

Kevin
light relay.jpg
relay top.jpg
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Re: '87 R65 instrument cluster wiring

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:45 am

OK, we're getting somewhere. First an apology. In my last there is a typo. I have swapped terminal 85 for 86. 86 should be green and should have battery voltage when the ignition is on. 85 should be black and be ground except when the button is pressed. I'm a bit surprised that your bike has a green/black there. The circuit diagrams show either solud green or green/violet. The significance is that green/black is normally a fused line. No matter though, if the fuse had blown, a lot of other things wouldn't work which do... It is always worth checking the fuses though.

That being said, the green should definitely get battery voltage so we need to chase why that isn't happening. That voltage is what energises the relay and without it, the symptoms you descripe make sense... The 1 244 411 is definitely the right relay.

The circuit to get voltage to the relay runs from the ignition switch to the multi connector for the left hand handlebar switchgear. On a euro spec bike it would go on up to the lighting switch but the US spec machine doesn't have a lighting switch so there should be a jumper of some description at the connector carrying the voltage across to the wire that goes to the lighting relay. I think this is the way to go...

1) get access to and disconnect the left hand switchgear connector. Use a meter to identify the wire that goes to the relay connector. If the wire is green black on the relay connector, then it'll probably be the same at the switch connector but bear in mind that the circuit diagrams show it as green or green/violet.

2) Identify the wire that goes to the ignition switch... this should be solid green. To be certain, test continuity using the meter. With the ignition switch connected, this wire should show battery voltage.

3) check to see if you can see a jumper between the two wires you identify above. The circuit diagram shows this as being in the wiring on the handlebar switch side of the connector block. If you can't see one, use your meter on the switch wiring to check if there is continuity between the two connections (no matter what the state of the switches).

4) If you still don't find connectivity, the next test is to replace the relay and use a temporary wire to short the two connections together (ignition on). There should be an audible click from the relay when the connection is made (The headlight won't light because the dip switch is disconnected).

5) If there isn't a click, you should check the relay is working. If you need instructions on how to do that let me know.

6) If there is a click, then the next step is to arrange a jumper between the two wires, that can be in place when the handlebar switch is connected. Once you've achieved this, with the relay in place and the switch connected, everything should be working correctly (heres hoping).

If as I surmise, the link in the handlebar switch wiring is missing, the permanent fix is simply to re-instate it... but that's making a lot of assumptions on what you may or may not find. Lert me know how you get on.

Rob
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Re: '87 R65 instrument cluster wiring

Postby r75boxer » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:26 pm

OK, we're getting somewhere. First an apology. In my last there is a typo. I have swapped terminal 85 for 86. 86 should be green and should have battery voltage when the ignition is on. 85 should be black and be ground except when the button is pressed. I'm a bit surprised that your bike has a green/black there. The circuit diagrams show either solud green or green/violet. The significance is that green/black is normally a fused line. No matter though, if the fuse had blown, a lot of other things wouldn't work which do... It is always worth checking the fuses though.

Upon closer inspection the green/ is green/violet.

That being said, the green should definitely get battery voltage so we need to chase why that isn't happening. That voltage is what energises the relay and without it, the symptoms you descripe make sense... The 1 244 411 is definitely the right relay.

The circuit to get voltage to the relay runs from the ignition switch to the multi connector for the left hand handlebar switchgear. On a euro spec bike it would go on up to the lighting switch but the US spec machine doesn't have a lighting switch so there should be a jumper of some description at the connector carrying the voltage across to the wire that goes to the lighting relay. I think this is the way to go...

1) get access to and disconnect the left hand switchgear connector. Use a meter to identify the wire that goes to the relay connector. If the wire is green black on the relay connector, then it'll probably be the same at the switch connector but bear in mind that the circuit diagrams show it as green or green/violet.

No connectivity.

2) Identify the wire that goes to the ignition switch... this should be solid green. To be certain, test continuity using the meter. With the ignition switch connected, this wire should show battery voltage.

At the switch: white to yellow and white to green show connectivity. See image. The green/black are horn (I believe) and blue/? are signals. The three wires hiding in the background/centre are (from top to bottom) green, yellow and white.
switch.jpg
3) check to see if you can see a jumper between the two wires you identify above. The circuit diagram shows this as being in the wiring on the handlebar switch side of the connector block. If you can't see one, use your meter on the switch wiring to check if there is continuity between the two connections (no matter what the state of the switches).

4) If you still don't find connectivity, the next test is to replace the relay and use a temporary wire to short the two connections together (ignition on). There should be an audible click from the relay when the connection is made (The headlight won't light because the dip switch is disconnected).

Did I answer this?

5) If there isn't a click, you should check the relay is working. If you need instructions on how to do that let me know.

6) If there is a click, then the next step is to arrange a jumper between the two wires, that can be in place when the handlebar switch is connected. Once you've achieved this, with the relay in place and the switch connected, everything should be working correctly (heres hoping).

I need help here. How do I test that the relay is working?

If as I surmise, the link in the handlebar switch wiring is missing, the permanent fix is simply to re-instate it... but that's making a lot of assumptions on what you may or may not find. Lert me know how you get on.

Rob
Rob, I am including a few more images. First, the headlight pod has a mystery connector. Four wires: red, grey/black, green/black and brown.
mystery connector.jpg
The main bulb harness looks like this:
main bulb.jpg
Kevin
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Re: '87 R65 instrument cluster wiring

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:26 pm

Testing the Relay

It's important to test the relay clear of the bike so that you can be sure that the results are not affected by the surrounding wiring. You will need five pieces of wire which you can connect and disconnect at will, one load, a fairly powerful bulb is ideal, and access to your battery. You will need to connect wires to the bulb and to the relay. You can do this in a number of ways. I tend to use jumper leads with crocodile clips at each end and I keep a number for the purpose. You could also make up some leads with spade connectors to attach to the relay. For the bulb, you could remove an indicator, leaving the bulb still in the holder and make your connections to the bulbholder connectors.

Testing to see if the actuating coil works...

Connect a wire between the negative pole of your battery and terminal 85 on the relay. Connect a second wire to the positive pole on the battery and touch it momentarily to terminal 86 on the relay. The relay should make an audible click when you touch the terminal and another different click when you disconnect. This shows that the relay actuating coil is working... but, it doesn't prove that the contact are making - well - contact.

Testing the contacts...

leaving the arrangement above in place, connect an additional wire from the positive pole of the battery to terminal 30 on the relay. Connect another wire from terminal 87 to the bulb and a third from the other bulb terminal to the negative pole of the battery. Now touching the wire to terminal, 86 as mentioned above should cause the lamp to light. Finally, move the bulb wire from terminal 87 to 87b. Once again the bulb should light.

Carrying out these tests will confirm whethwr the relay is working correctly.

N.B. On no account attach a ground wire to terminal 87b while there are other wires connected to the relay (or preferably at all). This will damage the relay.

The handlebar switch

The green, green/black wires at the switchgear itself relate to the horn and to the main beam flash circuit, both of which work. They are not relevant for this exercise. You can forget the switchgear itself for the time being, the important thing is to work out why there is no supply to the relay terminal 86 and, in a US spec machine, that circuit doesn't go to the switchgear..

No, you haven't answered point 4... In point two, you should have identified the green and the green/violet wires in the left switchgear multi connector that go to the relay and the ignition switch respectively. These are not the only wires in the in the connector that are green or partly green so it is important to ensure that you identify the right wires. Once you have identified them, shorting them together with the relay in place and the ignition on should cause the relay to operate (click). As an additional check, you could try connecting the green/violet wire to battery positive, which should also cause the relay to operate (click)

The 'mystery connector' is the connector for OEM additional instruments... i.e. clock and voltmeter. Red + Brown for the clock, Green/black + Brown for the Voltmeter and grey/black + brown for the illumination lamps. There is an auxiliary loom available to connect from this connector to the OEM instruments.

The headlamp connector looks fine as long as the non-stock connector in the ground line (brown) is sound. I think we can assume it is otherwise the headlamp flasher wouldn't work.

Rob
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Re: '87 R65 instrument cluster wiring

Postby r75boxer » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:25 pm

Testing the Relay

It's important to test the relay clear of the bike so that you can be sure that the results are not affected by the surrounding wiring. You will need five pieces of wire which you can connect and disconnect at will, one load, a fairly powerful bulb is ideal, and access to your battery. You will need to connect wires to the bulb and to the relay. You can do this in a number of ways. I tend to use jumper leads with crocodile clips at each end and I keep a number for the purpose. You could also make up some leads with spade connectors to attach to the relay. For the bulb, you could remove an indicator, leaving the bulb still in the holder and make your connections to the bulbholder connectors.

Testing to see if the actuating coil works...

Connect a wire between the negative pole of your battery and terminal 85 on the relay. Connect a second wire to the positive pole on the battery and touch it momentarily to terminal 86 on the relay. The relay should make an audible click when you touch the terminal and another different click when you disconnect. This shows that the relay actuating coil is working... but, it doesn't prove that the contact are making - well - contact.

Yes, it makes an audible click and then another different one when removing the wire.

Testing the contacts...

leaving the arrangement above in place, connect an additional wire from the positive pole of the battery to terminal 30 on the relay. Connect another wire from terminal 87 to the bulb and a third from the other bulb terminal to the negative pole of the battery. Now touching the wire to terminal, 86 as mentioned above should cause the lamp to light.

Yes, the lamp lights up.

Finally, move the bulb wire from terminal 87 to 87b. Once again the bulb should light.

Yes it does.

Carrying out these tests will confirm whethwr the relay is working correctly.

N.B. On no account attach a ground wire to terminal 87b while there are other wires connected to the relay (or preferably at all). This will damage the relay.

The handlebar switch

The green, green/black wires at the switchgear itself relate to the horn and to the main beam flash circuit, both of which work. They are not relevant for this exercise. You can forget the switchgear itself for the time being, the important thing is to work out why there is no supply to the relay terminal 86 and, in a US spec machine, that circuit doesn't go to the switchgear..

No, you haven't answered point 4... In point two, you should have identified the green and the green/violet wires in the left switchgear multi connector that go to the relay and the ignition switch respectively. These are not the only wires in the in the connector that are green or partly green so it is important to ensure that you identify the right wires. Once you have identified them, shorting them together with the relay in place and the ignition on should cause the relay to operate (click). As an additional check, you could try connecting the green/violet wire to battery positive, which should also cause the relay to operate (click)

As shown in the image of the previous post I made showing the left switch, the middle three wires (green, yellow (I believe) and white. With ignition on and relay in place, when I short the green and yellow the headlight turns on (low beam). Distinctly different illumination from the 'flash' which I believe is the high beam. No audible 'click' when shorting or removing short. Does this mean the switch is not working?

The 'mystery connector' is the connector for OEM additional instruments... i.e. clock and voltmeter. Red + Brown for the clock, Green/black + Brown for the Voltmeter and grey/black + brown for the illumination lamps. There is an auxiliary loom available to connect from this connector to the OEM instruments.

The headlamp connector looks fine as long as the non-stock connector in the ground line (brown) is sound. I think we can assume it is otherwise the headlamp flasher wouldn't work.

Rob


Thanks also for the info on the mystery connector.

Kevin
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Rob Frankhamr
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Re: '87 R65 instrument cluster wiring

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:36 am

OK, well and good... the relay is in working order.... but we still need to find out why there is no voltage on terminal 86. Without it, the relay will do nothing.

In order to do this we need to know what is going on at the multi-connector for the left hand switchgear.

Your test involving the yellow wire in the switchgear itself of interest in that it proves that the wiring from the dip switch to the dip beam filament is good and confirms that the bulb earth is good but it has no relevance to why the relay isn't working.

We really do need to do tests at the multi plug to establish why there is no voltage on the green/violet wire that triggers the relay. The measures in points 2 to 4 will go along way to establishing this. but the tests must be done at the multiplug with it disconnected. For the purposes of this test, the switchgear is irrelevant.

We are not expecting the dip beam or main beam to light up, merely to establish why a good relay isn't doing what it should.

Once we've sorted that out, we can see if it solves the problem completely. If not we treat is as a new problem and start again.

Rob
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Re: '87 R65 instrument cluster wiring

Postby r75boxer » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:35 pm

Thanks again Rob. We'll have to pick this up in two weeks - I'm off to the coast for some much needed R and R.

Kevin
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Re: '87 R65 instrument cluster wiring

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:53 pm

Enjoy...

Rob
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