R100R - refitting timing chain cover

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R100R - refitting timing chain cover

Postby andyb » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:03 am

The leak on my engine at the front was from the crank seal and also from the bolts which have the little O rings on the inside of the timing case - which means removing the timing chain cover……

When I refit it, it will centre OK on the crank bearing but do I need a special tool to make sure it aligns on the camshaft where the bean can fits? Or will the mounting bolts make it align?

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Re: R100R - refitting timing chain cover

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:42 am

Two points...

1) I'm a bit confused by your reference to bolts with 'O' rings on the insdie of the timing case. I'm not aware of any of the timing case bolts that are fitted with 'O' rings. Are you getting confused with the two topmost bolts. These have ring shaped spacers made of gasket material to act as spacers since the main timing cover gasket doesn't extend upwards to the point where these bolts go through
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Re: R100R - refitting timing chain cover

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:00 am

Two points...

1) I'm a bit confused by your reference to bolts with 'O' rings on the inside of the timing case. I'm not aware that any of the timing case bolts are fitted with 'O' rings... certainly there are none on any of the engines I've rebuilt. Are you getting confused with the two topmost bolts which have ring shaped spacers made of gasket material. These act as spacers to compensate for the fact that the main timing cover gasket doesn't extend upwards to the point where these bolts go through. Omitting the rings will put stress on the timing cover which could lead to it cracking... but they do not have any function in preventing the escape of oil simply because there is no oil anywhere near where they are fitted. The rings are part nine on the attached diagram.
Timing Cover.jpg
2) There are three studs that positively locate the cover on the block so no alignment tool is required.

There are nine allen screws and three allen sleeve nuts that hold the cover in position. The sleeve nuts fit on the aformentioned studs. It is well worth knowing that the studs also have the function of blocking off the outer ends of oil galleries. The upper two block the ends of the galleries that feed the rockers. The lower one block the main feed forward from the oil pump...

a) If they're not leaking, it is a good idea to leave them alone...

b) if you do have to remove them because they're damaged, leaking or you want to make sure the galleries are clean... make sure they are refitted with stud seal...

Hope that helps

Rob
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Re: R100R - refitting timing chain cover

Postby andyb » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:01 pm

Thanks Rob. Much appreciated.
Good to know no alignment tool is needed.
You are quite right, the two upper spacers, items 9, are the ones that I have called O rings as I have not seen them yet - and now I realise they do not actually make a seal. I do have leakage past some of the bolts though so will carry on and remove the cover and clean the threads out and reseal.
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Re: R100R - refitting timing chain cover

Postby andyb » Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:30 pm

Cover off now. Glad I did remove it as some of the fixing bolts were slightly loose and there was also a slight weep from the gasket behind the cover. It is one of those jobs that is not difficult but which I could do a lot faster next time!
Oil was running along some of the fixing bolts and there was no sign of sealant,
I am a bit reluctant to use stud-lock incase it makes the bolts too difficult to remove next time. How about a little Blue hylomar on the threads as that seals well and does not go solid?
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Re: R100R - refitting timing chain cover

Postby Anthony » Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:55 pm

If you clean the mating surfaces and remove all the old gasket and sealant there should be no need to put anything on the threads other than a little anti seize grease. When I did my timing case I put a very very thin smear of hylomar on the mating surfaces just in case the gasket (which surrounds locating studs and threaded holes) could not seal completely. Before it goes back on check the chain tensioner components for wear.
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Re: R100R - refitting timing chain cover

Postby John Marshall » Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:05 am

What mileage has the bike done? I only ask because at some point the timing chain and tensioner will need replacing. I did the last bike I had at around 80k miles.Anyhow not to worry if lower miles.
I tend to use Threebond 1215 (but only the thinnest smear ) these days.
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Re: R100R - refitting timing chain cover

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:40 am


I am a bit reluctant to use stud-lock incase it makes the bolts too difficult to remove next time. How about a little Blue hylomar on the threads as that seals well and does not go solid?
andyb
When I referred to using stud seal, I was talking about the three studs that are firred semi permanently into the block. You shouldn't need any form of thread locker on the bolts or the nuts... unless the threads in the block have been damaged previously... With the bolts and nuts properly and evenly tightened, the gasket should prevent any oil reaching the screw and studs themselves from the timing case. A smear of smear of non hardening jointing compound can be used on the gasket faces if you aren't happy with the state of them.

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Re: R100R - refitting timing chain cover

Postby Anthony » Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:59 am

What mileage has the bike done? I only ask because at some point the timing chain and tensioner will need replacing. I did the last bike I had at around 80k miles.Anyhow not to worry if lower miles.
I tend to use Threebond 1215 (but only the thinnest smear ) these days.
John
About 60k, don’t think the tensioning spring or shoe are very expensive and probably result in more stable timing.
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Re: R100R - refitting timing chain cover

Postby andyb » Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:26 am

[quote="John Marshall" post_id=218162 time=<a href="tel:1637881540">1637881540</a> user_id=36]
What mileage has the bike done? I only ask because at some point the timing chain and tensioner will need replacing. I did the last bike I had at around 80k miles.Anyhow not to worry if lower miles.
I tend to use Threebond 1215 (but only the thinnest smear ) these days.
John
[/quote]

Good idea JM but my bike is only at 44,000 miles, and the tensioner looks OK- so I will leave well alone.

Rob - thanks for clarification about where to use studlock - I will leave the studs in place as they seem dry. But oil has been coming up bolt threads so the gasket behind the cover was obviously leaking.

Anthony - Like you, ‘Works suggested a smear of Hylomar on the gasket. I had read that genuine BMW gaskets has a sealant impregnated into them which activates with heat but theirs is a non-BMW gasket. It is probably also easier to keep in position with a little hylomar

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Re: R100R - refitting timing chain cover

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:46 am

I think that you might have nailed the issue when you comment that some of the fixings were slightly loose. Loose screws would allow oil to get past the gasket and into the bolt holes. I've never found it necessary to use gasket seal on this joint but I certainly don't see any downside so if you have any concerns go for it....

Rob
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Re: R100R - refitting timing chain cover

Postby andyb » Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:14 pm

Hi Rob,
Just removed the gasket that goes behind the timing cover. The top half was well glued to the crankcase front face but the lower half simply pulled away in one piece where over the years oil had got under it.

I do wonder if I am pushing things expecting to be able to use a 30 year old vehicle on modern roads and as my main bike? I know these bikes can notch up many many miles but the bikes were newer then.

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Re: R100R - refitting timing chain cover

Postby Steve Rankin » Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:42 pm

On my high mile bike, I have had this cover off and on three times. I never used any sealer, or thread locker of any kind with no leaks. The key is to be sure when installing the gasket, the cover and engine are clean, the gaskets are in place, and the bolts are crisscrossed tightened or tightened evenly. I don't have my shop book in front of me but I recall there is a torque value for final tension, it is not very high.

I have seen bikes in the shop with stripped bolts or torn gaskets leaking after timing chain replacement leaking or seeping.

You hit the nail on the head finding the loose bolts. LOL, sadly, you may have saved some work by just snugging the bolts down first, and checking later to see if oil was seeping still. Then, pulled the cover and replaced the gaskets.

As for riding an airhead that is 30 years old in modern traffic, I have NO problems. The R100 will happily run all day at 80mph, accelerate and weave in all kinds of traffic. No, it does not have the much better brakes and suspension the newer bikes have but it will do just fine.

I have never seen a BMW bike built after 84 that even interested me enough to spend money on purchasing. I spend my money on maintaining, renewing and continuing to ride my 84 and 78 bikes. As long as I can continue to get filters, and parts, I will continue to keep on doing so. They are the perfect bike for me as they can carry a ton of luggage, look good, run good and I CAN fix them myself. Simple fast and good, the way motorcycles should be. St.

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Re: R100R - refitting timing chain cover

Postby Anthony » Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:41 pm

As for riding an airhead that is 30 years old in modern traffic, I have NO problems. The R100 will happily run all day at 80mph, accelerate and weave in all kinds of traffic. No, it does not have the much better brakes and suspension the newer bikes have but it will do just fine.

I have never seen a BMW bike built after 84 that even interested me enough to spend money on purchasing. I spend my money on maintaining, renewing and continuing to ride my 84 and 78 bikes. As long as I can continue to get filters, and parts, I will continue to keep on doing so. They are the perfect bike for me as they can carry a ton of luggage, look good, run good and I CAN fix them myself. Simple fast and good, the way motorcycles should be. St.
Totally agree, although personally I thought it was a bad move when they did away with the alloy clam shell air cleaner, ruined the whole look of the engine. And as for the non-idiosyncratic switchgear, well least said the better. I did hear from Works that they are looking at getting reproductions made probably by someone like Seibenrock.
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Re: R100R - refitting timing chain cover

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:47 pm

Hi Rob,

I do wonder if I am pushing things expecting to be able to use a 30 year old vehicle on modern roads and as my main bike? I know these bikes can notch up many many miles but the bikes were newer then.

AndyB

I wouldn't claim that an airhead is going to be as reliable as a modern machine but I commuted (between 20 miles and 50 miles each way using my '81 RS and my '87 RT (and before that a '78 R45) for probably the best part of 30 years. Yes, I had breakdowns occasionally but not to an excessive amount and, in the vast majority of cases the bike got me home. I still use them for 200 to 300 mile days out without any real concerm.

I wouldn't say that an airhead, especially a very late model, is impractical for normal road use... in fact, I think that, in terms of comfort and rideability, they are still streets ahead of many of todays offerings. The ability to press the button, ride the tank (nearly) dry. Fill up and do it again is the essence of the airhead.

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Re: R100R - refitting timing chain cover

Postby stanthomas » Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:56 pm

I do wonder if I am pushing things expecting to be able to use a 30 year old vehicle on modern roads and as my main bike? I know these bikes can notch up many many miles but the bikes were newer then.
Don't see any problem provided it's first brought up to spec. and maintained there. Then it should run as well as it ever did, which was pretty damn good.
My '81 RS needs some work this winter to replace rotted rubber bits (pushrod seals, driveshaft gaiter) but after that, with regular maintenance, I will expect it to start on the button and go all day, everyday. I no longer have a 90 mile each way commute but don't doubt it would be up to it.

Before long, someone in the Treasury is going to notice that a lot of "historic" vehicles are being used as daily drives :-$

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Re: R100R - refitting timing chain cover

Postby Steve Rankin » Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:34 pm

The key to keeping these bikes running is as said, bring them up to proper functioning, and keep them there. I am amazed at the number of people who put thousands of miles on airheads without major problems, I am one of them.

So, yes, I have rebuilt the engine with new jugs and pistons, rebuilt the heads, timing chains, and forks, so on and so forth. None of this was in the bikes first three years. Then, the only thing I had to do was make sure the valves were adjusted and the oil and filter were changed as stated.

One of the best things BMW did was getting rid of points, that was one less thing to mess with every so many miles.

I am a weird person who loves my two bikes, particularly the 84 and have no desire to throw it away or trade it in. I would rather maintain, repair or rebuild, and I am still adding improvements even after 37 years of ownership. None of the "newer" BMW Motorcycles give me the desire to be crazy like this. Plus, I would not have the patience to deal with the nonsense electronic stuff on them now when it goes tits up. I sure don't want to pay a dealer money to work on the bike, not that I have anything against dealers or at least some dealers.

I can on my two bikes carry the same amount of luggage just as far and as fast as the R1250GS bikes and if I break down on the road, there is a better chance of doing a roadside/parking lot fix with the 84RT then there would be with the 22 GS.

Maintain the bikes and they will go a long time without problems. Wear and tear are to be expected. Have fun. St.

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Re: R100R - refitting timing chain cover

Postby andyb » Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:08 pm

Interesting comments about continuing to keep my R100R going, which in the main I agree with. Mine is a 1992 bike so ‘modern’ compared with some…..I previously had a 1995 R80R and it felt strange upgrading to an older bike!

But….
All rubber parts, gaskets and seals age. And eventually fail. Or need replacing.
I have just replaced the fork shroud rubber top hats on my 1994 Speed Triple - they had aged and were breaking up - and this happens to all rubber / plastics.
Wires fatigue. Connections corrode.
Steel parts rust. Not always where visible. Components seize together. Plating wears off.
Parts become difficult to source unless secondhand, which means part worn.

All our bikes were best when new and assembled at the factory. Subsequent strip downs will be to a lower standard than the initial build. Proper tools and jigs may not be used. Even with owners taking a lot of care, as for many it will be the first time many of us done the job, it will probably not be done as well as at the factory.

Then of course there are the mistakes we all make…..

I would like to start again with a new R100R but I would never buy a ‘just rebuilt’ one.

Options
- Guzzi V7 850. I already have a 2014 V7 but the current 850cc model looks like it has benefits. But is a lot more complex. So I will stick with what I have.
- a newer BMW. But what? Ignoring £s a GS Adventurer with a low frame might work…..but it is heavy and high tech.
Maybe a RE Himalayan?

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Re: R100R - refitting timing chain cover

Postby Steve Rankin » Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:23 am

LOL, I don't think my bike was assembled or at its best new as out of the factory. My dealer spent a great deal of time on each bike he sold correcting little things or out of adjustment things missed at the factory. That was back in the sixty's, seventies, eighties, and early nineties. Granted BMW was not as bad as some of the other companies but was far from perfect.

As to repeated rebuilds and repairs lowering the quality of the bikes over the years, I take exception to that. I DON"T skimp on repairs or maintenance of my bikes. I have totally rebuilt my 84 bike from total tear down to as new or, with minor improvements better than new results.

It is true sadly a lot of owners don't have my standards of conditions when they repair or rebuild or restore.

At 37 years old with 246K miles on the odometer, my 84 R80RT runs and looks just as good and has slightly better power and comfort than it did when I bought it new. That is because as I said, I am weird and spend the time and money to keep it this way. St.

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Re: R100R - refitting timing chain cover

Postby Anthony » Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:45 am


All our bikes were best when new and assembled at the factory. Subsequent strip downs will be to a lower standard than the initial build. Proper tools and jigs may not be used. Even with owners taking a lot of care, as for many it will be the first time many of us done the job, it will probably not be done as well as at the factory.

andyB
With all due respect I simply cannot agree with that, carefully selected modern components are streets ahead of OEM parts. And whilst some replacements from specialist suppliers tend to have a “it’s good enough” air about them (pushrod felts?). Others such as Siebenrock are of an incredibly high standard though pricey. Plating wears off? Get it replated. Something needs a special tool? take it to someone who has it or buy it yourself. If you are unsure of a particular procedure such as crank repair or gearbox rebuilds or bevel box rebuilds then there are enough specialists who will happily take your cash and do a better job than a dealer would. Although many Motorad dealers will not touch old airheads. Something needs machining take it to a machinist who will happily oblige and can replicate odds and ends in stainless.
What I like about Airheads is that they are an analogue solution in a digital world. But then I much prefer valves to transistors so perhaps I’m just an old fogey :wink:
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Re: R100R - refitting timing chain cover

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:58 pm


All our bikes were best when new and assembled at the factory. Subsequent strip downs will be to a lower standard than the initial build. Proper tools and jigs may not be used. Even with owners taking a lot of care, as for many it will be the first time many of us done the job, it will probably not be done as well as at the factory.

andyB
With all due respect I simply cannot agree with that, carefully selected modern components are streets ahead of OEM parts. And whilst some replacements from specialist suppliers tend to have a “it’s good enough” air about them (pushrod felts?). Others such as Siebenrock are of an incredibly high standard though pricey. Plating wears off? Get it replated. Something needs a special tool? take it to someone who has it or buy it yourself. If you are unsure of a particular procedure such as crank repair or gearbox rebuilds or bevel box rebuilds then there are enough specialists who will happily take your cash and do a better job than a dealer would. Although many Motorad dealers will not touch old airheads. Something needs machining take it to a machinist who will happily oblige and can replicate odds and ends in stainless.
What I like about Airheads is that they are an analogue solution in a digital world. But then I much prefer valves to transistors so perhaps I’m just an old fogey :wink:
While I have some sympathy with what you say, I think you might be wearing glasses of a roseate hue. There are some very good aftermarket parts out there... but there is also some real dross. Especially in terms of plastic and rubber parts but also some metal bits. Pushrod tubes seals that last 5 minutes, screens that fit where they touch, even rocker covers that are so thin they could have been pressed out of old aluminium cans... you name it....and price isn't really a good guide, nor yet is the vendor name... after all, the vendor doesn't make the goods, he buys them in. The trick is really working out which parts are worth buying and which aren't... and in this world of internet buying where you can't examine the goods before you buy, that isn't easy. The best that can be said is that, if you buy from a reputable dealer and the item isn't up to scratch, you've a good chance of getting some satisfaction.

Rob
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Re: R100R - refitting timing chain cover

Postby Anthony » Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:26 pm


While I have some sympathy with what you say, I think you might be wearing glasses of a roseate hue. There are some very good aftermarket parts out there... but there is also some real dross. Especially in terms of plastic and rubber parts but also some metal bits. Pushrod tubes seals that last 5 minutes, screens that fit where they touch, even rocker covers that are so thin they could have been pressed out of old aluminium cans... you name it....and price isn't really a good guide, nor yet is the vendor name... after all, the vendor doesn't make the goods, he buys them in. The trick is really working out which parts are worth buying and which aren't... and in this world of internet buying where you can't examine the goods before you buy, that isn't easy. The best that can be said is that, if you buy from a reputable dealer and the item isn't up to scratch, you've a good chance of getting some satisfaction.

Rob
I agree with much of what you say although “wearing glasses of a roseate hue” perhaps more of a glass half full outlook. One thing I have noticed is the excreable quality of Chinese electrical crimp connectors.
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Re: R100R - refitting timing chain cover

Postby Steve Rankin » Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:40 am

Yep Rob hit it on the head with the comments about parts. While browsing Ebay one fine day I was struck with the vast number of carb rebuild kits in the 11 to 15 dollar range being sold for Bing carbs. Now having just bought rebuild parts for two carbs for a project, I KNOW I paid a LOT more than that for the parts. The difference, the ones on Ebay are the "dross" or crap and sorry to say the fools who buy such parts get what they pay for. Sadly, sometime they pay for the part, it fails and they pass the problem on to the new owner. Hence previous owner's disease is rampant.

I will also say that some of the BMW dealers are not selling the same quality parts they did back in the day. Nuts and bolts are the big gripe I have. Where BMW used to have nice quality nuts and bolts, the stuff I am seeing at some dealers is the cheap nasty looking stuff I can get cheap online for less.

We are very luck to have people like Herr Siebenrock and others who make a point to sell quality stuff but in the case of Herr Siebenrock to bring NLA parts back to life using high quality manufacturing sources.

An acquaintance of mine has a Russian Dnieper side car rig with a BMW engine in it. He was having major issues with the clutch mechanism failing and purchased part after part only to find out the parts were garbage. In the end, he had the parts made and solved his problem.

I pray I never have that problem but if the time comes, I may just have a local shop make parts for me if need be. Thank God I am not at that point yet. St.


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