BMW R65 Head and Valves Hitting Piston - Valve Clearance?

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BMW R65 Head and Valves Hitting Piston - Valve Clearance?

Postby bluebossa2 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:20 pm

Hi, Out for a ride in Lancashire on Sunday, DGR2019 to Blackpool and Bike decided to die on the way back home.. Pah.

I'd adjusted the Valve clearance the day before, Saturday, and in retrospect may have got it wrong I suspect, I timed to a white painted line on Flywheel, not OT at the time... thought that was the Timing Mark!
- Bike seemed to run OK, then started to loose Power after 50 miles, finally started making some noise on Right side and ground to a halt and wouldn't restart.

I've tried resetting Valve clearances - rotating to OT, then setting to .2mm exhaust and .1mm Inlet...
Bike starts but right side clunks and metal meeting metal sound... Valve to Piston..
I took off both heads, right Piston has signs of being struck by Valve, marking on piston head... Valves all good, nothing broken...

Put it back together, re-torqued and again adjusted Valve clearances - again Big metallic noise on Right hand Pot...

Anyone got any ideas before I shell out on new parts?
What to check... Pushrods seem straight and Bike starts but makes an almighty racket...

Can the Valve seats come down, move meaning the Valve is closer to the Piston?
What do you suggest - meanwhile I've posted a wanted Ad in Parts for a Right hand R65 Head and Valves if anyone has one sitting in a Shed !?

Thanks in advance - Jonny.
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Re: BMW R65 Head and Valves Hitting Piston - Valve Clearance?

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:00 pm

Bent valve stem?
Broken Cam Follower?

Can you get a large sucker onto the top of the piston and see if the piston can be pulled up & down?
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Re: BMW R65 Head and Valves Hitting Piston - Valve Clearance?

Postby keiththeoutfitter1 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:37 pm

How far did you have to adjust the clearances when you set them before the ride?
Did you make sure to adjust each side with the piston at tdc on the compression stroke for that side or did you just set the pistons to tdc and set both sides without rotating the crankshaft?
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Re: BMW R65 Head and Valves Hitting Piston - Valve Clearance?

Postby Roy Gavin » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:59 pm

It is easy to remove the plugs and check TDC with something down the plug hole.
When you have TDC it should be possible to get clearance on both valves on one side, impossible on the other as they will be on part lift.
After you have set the available side turn the motor forward one rev until you are at TDC again and set the other side.
If I do it that way I still check by starting the motor with the rocker box covers off and something to catch the oil, letting the motor warm up then checking by feel that I still have clearance on the hot motor.
Some folks check and set them that way, usually pro mechanics who develop a feel for it, and have a busy workshop where it it difficult to let every motor cool off before servicing them.
Some workshop manuals on slow running sixes actually suggest that the motor is still running and have a micrometer click adjuster which holds the lock nut while you adjust the valve.
Doing it this way will also let you check rocker end float, if you have had the barrels off that you have oil flow to the rockers, and perhaps even wear elsewhere in the system which only manifests itself when the motor is running and hot.
But it sounds as if you have damaged something, probably bent valves, so you may be in for a little expense.
If you need new valves I would consider giving the head to someone who knows what is he is doing to check the guides and seats, or , given the cost on a complete head job, asking Motorworks if they have any good heads.
And perhaps pistons.
Last edited by Roy Gavin on Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BMW R65 Head and Valves Hitting Piston - Valve Clearance?

Postby bluebossa2 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:18 am

Bent valve stem?
Broken Cam Follower?

Can you get a large sucker onto the top of the piston and see if the piston can be pulled up & down?
Bent Valve Stem - I'm going down that route, planning to take the Head off again tonight as I think being out of time it may have a bent stem and not be returning... just ordered a Valve Spring compressor, 4 years since I last built the engine and in that time Bike has been to Dubai and back and I got rid of the tools!
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Re: BMW R65 Head and Valves Hitting Piston - Valve Clearance?

Postby bluebossa2 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:20 am

How far did you have to adjust the clearances when you set them before the ride?
Did you make sure to adjust each side with the piston at tdc on the compression stroke for that side or did you just set the pistons to tdc and set both sides without rotating the crankshaft?
I think the issue is that it wasn't at TDC at all - I found a mark which I took to be TDC - whereas I should have adjusted too OT in the window both sides... my fault, but it seemed to run great after adjustment and felt free, little did I know - Bike zoomed over to Preston then Blackpool without moaning or groaning...

It then decided enough was enough on the run out of Blackpool and that's when the clonking started...
I suspect a Bent Inlet Valve - will investigate again Wednesday....
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Re: BMW R65 Head and Valves Hitting Piston - Valve Clearance?

Postby bluebossa2 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:24 am

It is easy to remove the plugs and check TDC with something down the plug hole.
When you have TDC it should be possible to get clearance on both valves on one side, impossible on the other as they will be on part lift.
After you have set the available side turn the motor forward one rev until you are at TDC again and set the other side.
If I do it that way I still check by starting the motor with the rocker box covers off and something to catch the oil, letting the motor warm up then checking by feel that I still have clearance on the hot motor.
Some folks check and set them that way, usually pro mechanics who develop a feel for it, and have a busy workshop where it it difficult to let every motor cool off before servicing them.
Some workshop manuals on slow running sixes actually suggest that the motor is still running and have a micrometer click adjuster which holds the lock nut while you adjust the valve.
Doing it this way will also let you check rocker end float, if you have had the barrels off that you have oil flow to the rockers, and perhaps even wear elsewhere in the system which only manifests itself when the motor is running and hot.
But it sounds as if you have damaged something, probably bent valves, sow you may be in for a little expense.
If you need new valves I would consider giving the head to someone who knows what is he is doing to check the guides and seats, or , given the cost on a complete job, asking if Motorworks have any good heads.And perhaps pistons.
Thanks Roy, indeed... I built and set the engine up in the first place 4 years ago - in that time I'd forgotten about the OT (TDC) guide in the window!

I set to the wrong mark - I found a white bit of tippex on the Clutch carrier through the window when I was rotating the Back wheel to set the Valves - I think this was probably an alignment mark from when I later replaced the Clutch plates... rather than what I should I have set too - the OT mark on each side on Compression.

Read and re-read Haynes and other online guide again re adjustment and getting the right cylinder on compression.
Head off and Valve off again later today... thanks for coming back - will post updates/pics next time... Bugger - as they say!

All part of the Boxer fun...
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Re: BMW R65 Head and Valves Hitting Piston - Valve Clearance?

Postby bluebossa2 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:04 am

OK - couldn't sleep, so sneaked down to the Garage and took the Head off... Couple of pictures attached.
Rotated piston out and it went back half a cm with a finger push - meaning there might be play here - not sure where that goes next?
Need to find a plumbers plunger to see if it goes back and forwards...

Pictures clearly show:

1. Valve mark on Piston - Inlet side
2. Ring around Head on outer edge where metal is hitting metal too...
3. Ring around Piston where it hits the head

Yuk, Thoughts?
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Last edited by bluebossa2 on Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BMW R65 Head and Valves Hitting Piston - Valve Clearance?

Postby Mjolinor » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:08 am

Big or little ends. Hopefully just bearings. Put it on TDC then pull the cylinder off enough to feel for play but leave the rings in the barrel.

I have a pair of heads but no valves I don't think and I have crank and con rods spare but they stand me at over £100.

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Re: BMW R65 Head and Valves Hitting Piston - Valve Clearance?

Postby bluebossa2 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:20 am

Big or little ends. Hopefully just bearings. Put it on TDC then pull the cylinder off enough to feel for play but leave the rings in the barrel.

I have a pair of heads but no valves I don't think and I have crank and con rods spare but they stand me at over £100.
Thanks - I'll go try... good idea...
Barrels stuck to Engine casing, daren't get a mallet out, wifes asleep and she'll be non pleased - job for tomorrow...

Not sure what bits I need yet, but how much for the heads?
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Re: BMW R65 Head and Valves Hitting Piston - Valve Clearance?

Postby Mjolinor » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:27 am

The really good thing about these engines is that you can probably fix it now without much more pulling apart. Big end bearings can be replaced by taking the other side apart and that's all the dismantling it needs. The big question now is "why" The oil shifted by these engines is huge and I would suspect something has starved something of oil.

Looking at your pictures I would not consider that the heads need replacing. Personal opinion only. :)

We expect it to be back together and working before daylight. :)

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Re: BMW R65 Head and Valves Hitting Piston - Valve Clearance?

Postby John Marshall » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:19 am

If not already said best to watch the valves by turning the rear wheel in 5th gear when getting ready to do the clearances and double check with a long screwdriver through the plug hole that the piston is indeed at TDC on the correct stroke after the inlet valve has closed then verify the flywheel mark is visible.
When the barrel is up or indeed off all should be apparent

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Re: BMW R65 Head and Valves Hitting Piston - Valve Clearance?

Postby bluebossa2 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:47 am

The really good thing about these engines is that you can probably fix it now without much more pulling apart. Big end bearings can be replaced by taking the other side apart and that's all the dismantling it needs. The big question now is "why" The oil shifted by these engines is huge and I would suspect something has starved something of oil.

Looking at your pictures I would not consider that the heads need replacing. Personal opinion only. :)

We expect it to be back together and working before daylight. :)
Ha, thanks... Interesting, funny but thinking about it I've been hearing a Thrap on the overrun for some months - I was trying to pin it down and thought it might have been timing chain noise, but now I suspect Big End bearings - its that sort of noise... I remember it from my Vauxhall Viva Engine days in the 70s!

Agree re Heads now, I'll take Inlet Valve off to see if head bouncing has made it bend, but more confident of top end now and moving to the Bottom end. More soon... and thanks. So do you think bottom end Crank Bearings then?

On the why question... the Bike spent 2 years with me in the Desert of Dubai - when it returned it had lost mysteriously all of it's Oil... not sure whether shipping company drained it or I overlooked it in Dubai with the heat... but on inspection in UK, we had to refill before riding off... that might explain a period of low/no oil... the perils of international travel..

It's been back on the road here for a year, but the thrapping has been more and more noticable... starts to tell a story now I think.
Here's a picture of it's dusty return... and one in Dubai.
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Re: BMW R65 Head and Valves Hitting Piston - Valve Clearance?

Postby bluebossa2 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:49 am

If not already said best to watch the valves by turning the rear wheel in 5th gear when getting ready to do the clearances and double check with a long screwdriver through the plug hole that the piston is indeed at TDC on the correct stroke after the inlet valve has closed then verify the flywheel mark is visible.
When the barrel is up or indeed off all should be apparent
Thanks John, definetely got my head around it again now for next time! Also read online that the side where the pushrods are loose at TDC, OT mark in the Window, is the side on the Compression stroke, and hence adjust... burnt in now...

Now to dive deeper into the bowells of the thing. Suspecting Bearings now...
Though planning to check Valve.
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Re: BMW R65 Head and Valves Hitting Piston - Valve Clearance?

Postby Mjolinor » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:52 am

Not possible to tell without hearing it but either road up either little end or big end.

That still leaves "why?" unanswered and "is the crank OK" unanswered though.

More investigation but for sure I would not be just putting new bearings in and firing it up without proving that oil flow is as it should be. I would fit an oil pressure gauge in place of the oil pressure switch temporarily.

Unless you know things like "it ran out of oil" or "I haven't changed it since I took it to Dubai.

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Re: BMW R65 Head and Valves Hitting Piston - Valve Clearance?

Postby bluebossa2 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:05 am

Not possible to tell without hearing it but either road up either little end or big end.

That still leaves "why?" unanswered and "is the crank OK" unanswered though.

More investigation but for sure I would not be just putting new bearings in and firing it up without proving that oil flow is as it should be. I would fit an oil pressure gauge in place of the oil pressure switch temporarily.

Unless you know things like "it ran out of oil" or "I haven't changed it since I took it to Dubai.
Ah the plot thickens... I never thought it ran out of Oil, but as mentioned back in the UK after it's voyage it was Zero oil. I nearly drove it home but checked and filled before riding... doesn't solve the why though...
I checked Oil level on Satuday and it was still fine...

I've not got an Oil pressure gauge - I've seen em though...
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Re: BMW R65 Head and Valves Hitting Piston - Valve Clearance?

Postby george baker » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:19 am

Hi
a mate had his valves done on a pair of VW heads, in Darwen iirc, I can find out the place if you need me to, they May be able to do BM heads

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Re: BMW R65 Head and Valves Hitting Piston - Valve Clearance?

Postby Aethelric » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:35 am

Hi
Have you changed the oil filter recently? Shimming is important in there. Try googling "the $2000 O ring".

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Re: BMW R65 Head and Valves Hitting Piston - Valve Clearance?

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:27 pm

Big or little ends. Hopefully just bearings. Put it on TDC then pull the cylinder off enough to feel for play but leave the rings in the barrel.

I have a pair of heads but no valves I don't think and I have crank and con rods spare but they stand me at over £100.
May be talking out of turn but nremember heads, con rods and crank are very different between the R65 and the R80.

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Re: BMW R65 Head and Valves Hitting Piston - Valve Clearance?

Postby Mjolinor » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:34 pm

Specifically R65 heads, crank and conrods. Also engine block too. :)

Would this be happening if the one on the left would do me. :)
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Re: BMW R65 Head and Valves Hitting Piston - Valve Clearance?

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:37 pm

Specifically R65 heads, crank and conrods. Also engine block too. :)

Would this be happening if the one on the left would do me. :)
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Re: BMW R65 Head and Valves Hitting Piston - Valve Clearance?

Postby bluebossa2 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:07 pm

So, pulled barrel away and masses of play at the Bottom end... recorded a short Video.
Be good to get advice on what and how to check everything... plan on taking other head and barrel off..

Am I right in saying a set of Crank Bearings is the start point of the cure - anything else to check?
Anyone seen this much play before... ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alzWIjHte9g
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Re: BMW R65 Head and Valves Hitting Piston - Valve Clearance?

Postby Mjolinor » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:26 pm

If it has been tinkling a while then consider yourself lucky I think.

Big problem now is the crank. I suspect you may be visiting my spares store. :)

Other cylinder off and both con rods out, do not even entertain only doing the knackered one and once they are both off get looking for a reason, perhaps oil pump , oil bypass valve. I think I would be removing the points and timing covers, it does depend on what oyu see once the con rods are out.

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Re: BMW R65 Head and Valves Hitting Piston - Valve Clearance?

Postby bluebossa2 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:29 pm

If it has been tinkling a while then consider yourself lucky I think.

Big problem now is the crank. I suspect you may be visiting my spares store. :)

Other cylinder off and both con rods out, do not even entertain only doing the knackered one and once they are both off get looking for a reason, perhaps oil pump , oil bypass valve. I think I would be removing the points and timing covers, it does depend on what oyu see once the con rods are out.
What to look for, how do you check or know whether Crank is good?
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Re: BMW R65 Head and Valves Hitting Piston - Valve Clearance?

Postby Mjolinor » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:32 pm

When you first removed the rocker cover how much oil came out?


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