Riding in groups

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andys
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Re: Riding in groups

Postby andys » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:45 pm


I was at a customers site years ago and one young man kept going on about the wear right to the edge of his tyres. A few weeks later I caught him grinding some new tyre edges down to make it look like he had been cornering hard. What a PLONKER. [-X
I must admit, a few years back I owned a Guzzi 1100 sport that had previously been owned by a very talented rider who'd done track days on it.
The tyre edges had that hard ridden melted look.
I got a lot of kudos out that.
Quite often I saw people gawping, and got quite a few comments from strangers complimenting me on my fast riding prowess.
I'd like to say that I told them the truth but I didn't.
I just lapped it up.
It was a very sad day for me when I had to change those tyres. :oops:

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Re: Riding in groups

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:15 pm

As time goes on hi viz becomes less noticeable because people have become accustomed to it so hi viz is less viz than it used to be.
Horses don’t have tail lights and headlights...

John


They should at night... Well riding lights anyway... perhaps someone ought to invent DRLs for horses :smile:

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Re: Riding in groups

Postby andys » Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:25 pm

The real issue regarding visibility isn't hi viz or not.
It's myopic drivers whose eyesight is so bad they shouldn't be on the road.
For those people dressing yourself head to toe in dayglo and covering yourself in flashing Christmas tree lights will make no difference.
I find it amazing that whilst we insist that a vehicle is tested for road worthiness every year, no such consideration is given to the most important component in any vehicle.
The driver.
At the very least there should be a mandatory eyesight test every year or two.
It would be easily implementable.
Independent opticians could act as eyesight testing stations in exactly the same way independent garages act as MOT centres.
An eyesight fail would mean that until it's rectified, you would not be able to drive.
Yes that's harsh but surely no sensible person would believe that allowing someone who can barely see to the end of the bonnet on the roads is OK.
Where's the sense in going to all that trouble ensuring a vehicle is roadworthy, but doing nothing to ensure the driver meets equally high standard's of road worthiness.

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Re: Riding in groups

Postby windmill john » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:10 am

I think it is a lack of concentration, not malicious maybe but just not focusing.

I have no idea what a lot of drivers are thinking about, but it is not the road or what is around them.
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Re: Riding in groups

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:42 am

The real issue regarding visibility isn't hi viz or not.
It's myopic drivers whose eyesight is so bad they shouldn't be on the road.
For those people dressing yourself head to toe in dayglo and covering yourself in flashing Christmas tree lights will make no difference.
I find it amazing that whilst we insist that a vehicle is tested for road worthiness every year, no such consideration is given to the most important component in any vehicle.
The driver.
At the very least there should be a mandatory eyesight test every year or two.
It would be easily implementable.
Independent opticians could act as eyesight testing stations in exactly the same way independent garages act as MOT centres.
An eyesight fail would mean that until it's rectified, you would not be able to drive.
Yes that's harsh but surely no sensible person would believe that allowing someone who can barely see to the end of the bonnet on the roads is OK.
Where's the sense in going to all that trouble ensuring a vehicle is roadworthy, but doing nothing to ensure the driver meets equally high standard's of road worthiness.


Gonna tell you a story...

Many years ago, when I was a patrol policeman, I went to the scene of an incident in a local village (not naming names to protect the guilty :smile: ). The village has a very busy main road running through the middle of it and had (long gone now) a petrol station halfway along. On the day in question, at about 10:00 o'clock in the morning, a brand new Volkswagen Passat Automatic pulled onto the forecourt and the driver, an elderly gentleman, filled the car with fuel. He then got into the car and started the engine. The car promptly took off like a scalded cat, hit another car on the forecourt, which turned it through 90 degrees and travelled at speed across the main road to embed itself in the shop opposite. Just to complete the mayhem, the driver then put the car in reverse and shot backwards into the street running over the foot of a builder from the next door business who had come to help and into the path of a milk lorry which hit it.

Not a very serious incident and one not without humour, especially as the only substantialy injured person was the big bluff builder jumping up and down and swearing very volubly about his painful foot.

To cut a long story (a bit) shorter, the elderly driver was carted off to hospital for checks and I supervised the clearing up operation, then I went to the hospital just down the road to see how he was. When I arrived, I was buttonholed by the doctor on duty who asked if he had really been driving the car, which I confirmed. He was quite shocked and told me that the man was in no way fit to drive... he was suffering from a condition called (iirc) Cerebral Atrophy.

Armed with this knowledge, I did the next enquiry, which was to visit the home where the driver lived with his son and daughter-in-law to inform them that 'dad' was in hospital. The formalities over, I asked if he should have been driving and told them what the hospital doctor had said. I was told 'Yes, we knew he had the condition... in fact he was aware of it, he's not daft. He went to his doctor the other week when he was thinking about buying the new car and asked if he was still fit to drive. The doctor checked him out and said, yes, he was fine".

When I contacted the doctor, he confirmed this and said, yes he had carried out the required tests and as far as he could tell, the old chap was perfectly mentally and physically fit to drive.

So... what is the point I'm making.

Yes, it would be great if opticians (and doctors) were under a duty to inform DVLA if someone (for whatever reason) is unfit to drive... in fact, they are under just such a duty. The problem is that they only see the patient for at most half an hour under more or less ideal circumstances. What they can't see is how a person reacts when they are, in fact, out there on the road. (I sometimes think, if they could, the roads would be a lot quieter :smile: )

For such a programme to be effective, you would need to institute an annual targeted health check which would, to be fair, have to apply to everyone. The cost would be horrendous and you can imagine the reaction from the civil liberties groups. Not going to happen.

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Re: Riding in groups

Postby andys » Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:36 pm




Yes, it would be great if opticians (and doctors) were under a duty to inform DVLA if someone (for whatever reason) is unfit to drive... in fact, they are under just such a duty. The problem is that they only see the patient for at most half an hour under more or less ideal circumstances. What they can't see is how a person reacts when they are, in fact, out there on the road. (I sometimes think, if they could, the roads would be a lot quieter :smile: )

For such a programme to be effective, you would need to institute an annual targeted health check which would, to be fair, have to apply to everyone. The cost would be horrendous and you can imagine the reaction from the civil liberties groups. Not going to happen.

Rob
You're making it much more complicated than I was suggesting it should be.
I was referring to eyesight.
Who the hell could argue that having eyesight checked regularly to determine your fitness to drive isn't a good idea.
As I said, it could easily be implemented by using high street opticians in exactly the same way as garages are used for MOT's.
It's part of the driving test for crying out loud.

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Re: Riding in groups

Postby windmill john » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:23 pm

Not to be contentious, So classify this as rhetorical. How could a young chap reverse into my RT. In case you missed that, I said BMW Airhead RT, possibly the biggest fairing in the world!!! That cannot be eyesight, but I don’t know what it is.
http://www.kittos.co.uk
Best roads: 623 Burgos to Santander. A back road to Metz; can't remember which!
Schorsch - 1978-80 R65 - bit of a Shetland pony; frisky and naughty.
Max - 2009 F800GS- where’s the desert at!?
Too many bikes have come and gone, trying to be sensible now!

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Re: Riding in groups

Postby Nate » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:02 pm

in fact, they are under just such a duty. The problem is that they only see the patient for at most half an hour under more or less ideal circumstances. What they can't see is how a person reacts when they are, in fact, out there on the road. (I sometimes think, if they could, the roads would be a lot quieter :smile: )

For such a programme to be effective, you would need to institute an annual targeted health check which would, to be fair, have to apply to everyone. The cost would be horrendous and you can imagine the reaction from the civil liberties groups. Not going to happen.

Rob
As you note, doctors (and optmetrists) are required to notify DVLA if they have any concerns regarding an individual's continued fitness to drive. Whilst it cannot include an on-road assessment, the criteria are thorough and rigorous. Many medical professionals however are loth to apply the criteria for a variety of reasons and DVLA are indeed aware of this. It should of course be noted, as per John's observation, that young male drivers, whose reaction times and visual acuity might be considered optimal, have much higher rates of involvement in collisions per mile traveled than elderly motorists, and a disproportionately higher degree of involvement in fatal and serious injury crashes.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/assessing-f ... fessionals

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Re: Riding in groups

Postby andys » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:36 pm

Not to be contentious, So classify this as rhetorical. How could a young chap reverse into my RT. In case you missed that, I said BMW Airhead RT, possibly the biggest fairing in the world!!! That cannot be eyesight, but I don’t know what it is.

A vehicle can get a puncture and subsequently lose traction and cause a collision.
Does that mean MOT's are pointless.
Similarly, there is nothing that can be done about dozy inattentive drivers, but we should at least be trying to do something about those who can barely see further than the end of their car bonnets.

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Re: Riding in groups

Postby kent_instructor10 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:05 pm

I believe that it would be possible to administer eyesight checks on a two or five yearly basis, dvla send a letter, driver makes an appointment at any opticians, then submits report to dvla who update licence record. Yet another government administrative procedure.

However, imho, eyesight is not the main factor here. It is inattention, lack of focus on the task of driving. Humans are by their nature fallible, and even "the best" make mistakes on the road. Its just that sometimes those mistakes happen in an environment where there are no consequence, but when the environment is different, those mistakes result in incidents.

No human can concentrate exclusively and effectively on any one given task continuously, but some are better than others at holding focus.

If people were more aware of their fallbility and / or lack of ability on the road, that would be a start. Yet again, good early training may assist in this process of self awareness.

To this end, should there be periodic driving assessments? Expensive and intensive to administer, but yes, it could help driving standards. Why not, every five or ten years have drivers be assessed by a specialist qualified instructor who could grade the drive as excellent, satisfactory, needs improvement, or unsatisfactory, and in the event of the latter grade a licence suspension until further training and appropriate standard achieved? There are not a lot of complex safety related skills where continued professional development is not now required.

I think a lot of the problem is driver attitude, where a percentage of drivers think they have no more to learn, cant be bothered or purely never think about it.

I dont think the authorities have either the appetite or budget to implement such road safety measures, it is easier to play with driving tests, put up lots of inappropriate speed limits and have occasional safety campaigns through the media. None of which truly address the real issues. Its a human condition problem. And the modern world is now so demanding and complicated on peoples emotions and psychological conditions that it doesnt leave a lot of brain space for the art of roadcraft.

Just my opinion...
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Re: Riding in groups

Postby windmill john » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:37 pm

I think the government introducing 20 mph in some cities is a cheap way of doing part of what you say. How about just harsher penalties for people at fault.
Bit of a sweeping statement I appreciate, but maybe we need to force people to think more of the road than other things.

Actually if you think about it, maybe our self preservation ups our skills as riders - You are driving a car going down the road, you see someone in a side road wanting to come out. In a car, you think about it with slight preparation. On a bike, you assume they are going to come out... very different thought process. So how can we make people in cars more thoughtful about self preservation.

Just a thought, I may be wrong.
http://www.kittos.co.uk
Best roads: 623 Burgos to Santander. A back road to Metz; can't remember which!
Schorsch - 1978-80 R65 - bit of a Shetland pony; frisky and naughty.
Max - 2009 F800GS- where’s the desert at!?
Too many bikes have come and gone, trying to be sensible now!

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Re: Riding in groups

Postby andys » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:47 pm



To this end, should there be periodic driving assessments? Expensive and intensive to administer, but yes, it could help driving standards. Why not, every five or ten years have drivers be assessed by a specialist qualified instructor who could grade the drive as excellent, satisfactory, needs improvement, or unsatisfactory, and in the event of the latter grade a licence suspension until further training and appropriate standard achieved? There are not a lot of complex safety related skills where continued professional development is not now required.
I don't believe that would have any effect, and to substantiate this view I would give you Japan as an example.
They operate just such a driver re assessment programme every few years.
It's quite intense and involves written exams as well as a practical test.
Their road fatality rate is proportionally, slightly higher than ours.

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Re: Riding in groups

Postby milleplod » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:36 pm



To this end, should there be periodic driving assessments? Expensive and intensive to administer, but yes, it could help driving standards. Why not, every five or ten years have drivers be assessed by a specialist qualified instructor who could grade the drive as excellent, satisfactory, needs improvement, or unsatisfactory, and in the event of the latter grade a licence suspension until further training and appropriate standard achieved? There are not a lot of complex safety related skills where continued professional development is not now required.
I don't believe that would have any effect, and to substantiate this view I would give you Japan as an example.
They operate just such a driver re assessment programme every few years.
It's quite intense and involves written exams as well as a practical test.
Their road fatality rate is proportionally, slightly higher than ours.
It may be, of course, that the programme has managed to reduce the level from something much worse, hence it actually working. Recorded road deaths in Japan seem to be falling year on year.

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Re: Riding in groups

Postby andys » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:17 pm

But then again, it may not.
We have to deal with facts that don't require assumptions.
Maybe the death rates would be higher without the two yearly licence renewal process ?
Sure, but maybe they wouldn't.
There's no way of knowing.
All we can go on is cold hard numbers.
Japan certainly did see a significant reduction in road deaths over the past few years, however the license renewal process has been in force for decades, so it seems very unlikely that this is the reason why.

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Re: Riding in groups

Postby milleplod » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:23 pm

In Japan, elderly drivers who surrender their licence get a discount from funeral directors - their families do too. :lol: Road deaths have been decreasing for the last 33 years. :smile:

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Re: Riding in groups

Postby andys » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:39 pm

Actually when you surrender your license in Japan voluntarily due to old age, you get a letter from the emperor thanking you for all your years of loyal motoring.
I'm not making that up.
It's absolutely true.
The licence renewal program has been going a lot longer than 33 years.
I think if you look at a graph you'll see a huge decrease in road deaths in the UK over the last 50-years, although they have gone up again.

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Re: Riding in groups

Postby andys » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:43 pm

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Re: Riding in groups

Postby milleplod » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:50 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-news-f ... e-39327663

I've not seen anything about a letter from the Emperor though.

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Re: Riding in groups

Postby andys » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:08 pm

My friends wifes grandfather got one.
It was one of many initiatives by the government to get elderly people out of their cars.
You're just determined to be antagonistic aren't you.
OK then.
Back to your point.
You say that a reduction in road deaths in Japan could be a result of strict driver re assessment every few years, and you site the reduction in road fatalities over the last 33 years as evidence.
As we see, road deaths in the UK have also been falling over a similar period, so clearly your argument as usual, falls flat on it's face.

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Re: Riding in groups

Postby milleplod » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:11 pm

My friends wifes grandfather got one.
It was one of many initiatives by the government to get elderly people out of their cars.
You're just determined to be antagonistic aren't you.
OK then.
Back to your point.
You say that a reduction in road deaths in Japan could be a result of strict driver re assessment every few years, and you site the reduction in road fatalities over the last 33 years as evidence.
As we see, road deaths in the UK have also been falling over a similar period, so clearly your argument as usual, falls flat on it's face.
No, not at all - I simply said I'd not seen that. And, yet again, look at the tone in your reply. I'm out, again, because of your attitude.

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Re: Riding in groups

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:20 pm

Now, now - be nice to one another!

We are all here to learn so be respectful of each other or you won't be getting any letter from the Emperor. [-X
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Re: Riding in groups

Postby andys » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:20 pm

I think we both know what you were implying.

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Re: Riding in groups

Postby andys » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:21 pm

I lived in Japan for a while back in the 80's.
I actually saw one of the letters.

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Re: Riding in groups

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:25 pm

I think we both know what you were implying.

Andy!!! :-$
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Re: Riding in groups

Postby Nate » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:29 pm

We had a dog once... A small terrier...humped anything that stood still for long enough... table legs, garden ornaments, visitors trousers, football boots, other dogs. Couldn't help himself. Had his balls off in the end. That worked...


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