Electric bikes

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andys
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Electric bikes

Postby andys » Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:45 pm

With all the doom and gloom coverage climate change is getting at the moment its hard not to to think that the party's nearly over and if we want to carry on riding we're going to have to do it on batteries, sooner rather than later.
So assuming that by the time it happens, we can get 200 - 300 miles out of a charge, would you ride one?

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Re: Electric bikes

Postby Mjolinor » Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:53 pm

I ran an electric scooter thing in Greece for a few years. Left it there when I came back to the UK but for sure I would have another anytime. I do wonder if I should pay to get it over here but the laws are a lot stricter. I used it without registration of any sort for several years and no one ever questioned it though for sure it was not legal to do so. The policemen in Greece are still allowed to use common sense in their pursuit of criminals.

I do have a couple of electric bicycles that I use regularly for local stuff, 20 miles or so range without putting much effort in. I have also ridden a 15 kw proper motorbike, absolute flying machine, it could be quite scary.

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Re: Electric bikes

Postby CharlieVictor » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:15 am

With all the doom and gloom coverage climate change is getting at the moment its hard not to to think that the party's nearly over and if we want to carry on riding we're going to have to do it on batteries, sooner rather than later.
So assuming that by the time it happens, we can get 200 - 300 miles out of a charge, would you ride one?
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Re: Electric bikes

Postby george baker » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:41 am

Hi
Yes
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Re: Electric bikes

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:24 pm

I'd ride one, although the 'vintage' aspect of my machines is quite important to me.

I have to wonder, however, how much longer the electric vehicle lobby will get it's own way. It's got to be questionable whether theres enough Lithium in the world to supply enough batteries. Already there are complaints from conservationists about the damage being done by Lithium mining. As far as I know, there's no other competing battery technology to challenge Lithium based batteries...

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Re: Electric bikes

Postby gogs01 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:18 pm

.
I'd like to ride an electric bike, but I can't imagine wanting to own one, ever.
I'd also like to ride a diesel bike and a steam powered bike. Wouldn't want to own them either, I suspect. :grin:
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Re: Electric bikes

Postby windmill john » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:19 pm

I used to wonder.....

If a pedal car with a single chain works well as a kid, why could you not add additional gears to get a decent speed.

Okay, a very simple premise and maybe you’d need too many gears to get it comfortably up to 50mph say.

But surely it must be possible to make a vehicle that could be peddle powered. Possibly the bulk of gears would be too much.
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Re: Electric bikes

Postby Mjolinor » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:32 pm

There are a few interesting looking technologies starting to appear. Lithium-Sulphur, aluminium-air.

Lithium is fast disappearing anyway and hard to recover it really is just a temporary technology.

By far the most promising is hydrogen for fuel cells but hydrogen production takes fossil fuels at the moment. Lack of refuelling stations is all that is holding it back.

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Re: Electric bikes

Postby andys » Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:19 pm

I see what we call mobility scooters as a viable means of urban transport.
I mean seriously, why not.
In some holiday destinations I heard there's a booming business in renting them to able bodied tourists to get around on.
There are some quite high tech ones with weather protection.
Great idea

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Re: Electric bikes

Postby george baker » Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:01 pm

Hi
I rode an electric off roader, not as peaky as a gas gas but really quick, quiet and fun.
A steam powered bike must be almost as fast off the line
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Re: Electric bikes

Postby John Marshall » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:18 pm

Dawes Galaxy will do for now.
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Re: Electric bikes

Postby gogs01 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:23 pm

I used to wonder.....

If a pedal car with a single chain works well as a kid, why could you not add additional gears to get a decent speed.

Okay, a very simple premise and maybe you’d need too many gears to get it comfortably up to 50mph say.

But surely it must be possible to make a vehicle that could be peddle powered. Possibly the bulk of gears would be too much.
There are lots of recumbent bikes around which have derailleur gears and can get up to decent speeds. They can also be enhanced with the addition of electric motors to improve performance.

My sister has a recumbent trike with 14 gears and an electric motor which, while it won't get up to 50mph, does allow her to get about for a fair distance at a decent speed.

So, your pedal car idea is almost here, I would suggest. . :thumbup:
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Re: Electric bikes

Postby Mjolinor » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:30 pm

I have one of these to repair this week. It is fun.
https://www.fullycharged.com/e-bikes/bike-brand/Bultaco

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Re: Electric bikes

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:25 pm

I have never understood why Battery Electric Vehicles have been taken up by Governments in preference to Hydrogen Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles.

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/electric ... l-cars.htm

Using Hydrogen as a fuel means that EVERY existing petrol/diesel Filling Station can easily be utilised for Hydrogen refuelling making the Range/Charge Time questions obsolete.

Honda has already developed a small solar/electric Hydrogen Generating Plant designed for Filling Station forecourt operation to produce Hydrogen on site.

Using Hydrogen means that drivers living in flats and parking by the roadside will no longer have to worry about how they will recharge their vehicle and if a charging space will be available when they need it.

Hydrogen is abundant and if made by splitting the Hydrogen from water there will never be a source shortage.

The waste product of a Hydrogen Fuel Cell is pure water - the long-established technology is used on space craft and space stations to provide astronauts with drinking water and electrical power.

It looks like a no-brainer - so WHY are Governments pushing Battery Electric Vehicles and using up the world's finite supply of Lithium available only from specific countries and which require MILLIONS of new vehicle charging points to be established to keep these batteries charged up?

The answer is absolutely shocking and a disgrace to the way the world is run... :shock:
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Re: Electric bikes

Postby CharlieVictor » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:59 am

Probably for the same reason they build windfarms requiring to bury 1500 tonnes of steel and concrete in the ground per generator, with blades made of indestructible composite material which is also buried in the ground when the generators are dismantled, and call it "clean energy".

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Re: Electric bikes

Postby Graeme » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:22 am

I agree with Ced 100% on hydrogen fuel cells.

Battery technology can only ever be a very short term solution due the the rare metals required to manufacture. In addition to the scarcity of these metals, the power required to refine and the ecological damage done when mining is horrendous. Perhaps the oil companies getting involved in electric vehicle technology see more profit here than in hydrogen...
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Re: Electric bikes

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:07 am

Sadly, fuel cell use has it's own series of problems that currently make it less than user friendly at present.

Take for example, the efficiency of the process. Electrolysis of water is reckoned to be about 80% efficient in terms of the power potential of the hydrogen produced. The potential efficiency of the fuel cell is also reckoned to be about 80%. This looks quite reasonable... but when you look at it in terms of electrical energy at the input of the electrolysis plant to electrical energy at the output of the fuel cell, you get a potential efficiency of 64%. But that's not all. The use of hydrogen in any vehicle requires it's carriage by the vehicle and it would be impossible to carry enough hydrogan at atmospheric pressure to travel any distance. The hydrogen has to be compressed, either as compressed gas or in liquid form requiring a plant at source to either compress or freeze it. This, inevitably requires more energy which will bring the efficiency down by an enormous amount. It would also involve the installation of expensive equipment at the point of electrolysis. If we forget electrolysis at point of supply for this reason, we are left with the problem of transporting large quantities of hydrogen gas or liquid from a processing plant to the point of supply.

This, of course, brings the next problem... even if we forget liquid hydrogen as being just too risky, hydrogen under pressure (or any other gas for that matter) is horribly dangerous. You may think that petrol and diesel fires are dangerous but the damage caused by the explosion of a gas cylinder, even if the gas itself is inert, is of another order. Add the potential of a hydrogen fireball... it doesn't bear thinking about.

You will note that I haven't even mentioned the efficiency of motors or the efficiency of the production and transmission of electricity, these may be considered to be the same for battery electric and fuel cell.

Sorry to say it but there is no free lunch. I have to say that I don't think battery electric vehicles hold the complete answer either... but then I don't know what does.

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Re: Electric bikes

Postby Mjolinor » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:16 am

LPG and CNG are safer than petrol in almost all situations where escape happens. That includes uncontrolled burning. I think the only exception is in the bilges of a boat.

There's my neck right out there with the turkeys. :)

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Re: Electric bikes

Postby DEEP DIVER » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:43 am

Just before I retired the forklift company we were dealers for made an hydrogen electric 5 ton truck prototype. It cost £1 million to develop.
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Re: Electric bikes

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:13 pm

LPG and CNG are safer than petrol in almost all situations where escape happens. That includes uncontrolled burning. I think the only exception is in the bilges of a boat.

There's my neck right out there with the turkeys. :)


From the burning point of view, you're probably correct but the explosive force of gas under pressure (no matter what the gas is) given the failure of the pressure vessel (for example in a traffic collision) can be horribly destructive.
In the 70's and 80's Citroen went through a phase of fitting gas filled shock absorber struts to their cars. As first responders, we were strongly advised to stay well clear of any such car if it had been involved in a collision, especially if there was fire involved. The small amount of gas under moderate pressure was perfectly capable of propelling the suspension strut through the bodywork with enough power to cause fatal injuries some distance from the vehicle. Gas under pressure isn't something to be treated lightly.

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Re: Electric bikes

Postby george baker » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:27 pm

Hi
What about storing the hydrogen as a metal hydride?
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Re: Electric bikes

Postby Mjolinor » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:07 am

LPG pressure is quite low and they are fitted with safety valves that will vent like a bunsen burner. If the kit is fitted correctly the chance of tank rupture is very small and no more dangerous that a ruptured petrol tank. In the situation where the safety valve does not blow off through fault and the vehicle is on fire enough to heat the tank to failure then it can make one hell of a bang but as far as I know it has never happened.

I have fitted dozens of gas conversions to cars the first being way back in the 1970s and never had any serious problems with any. The difference between petrol and LPG is not that much. I have removed fuel sender units on tanks that were half full in order to replace them and the gas just boils until you get the sender unit back in. Well ventilated place is required for sure and no smoking. :)

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Re: Electric bikes

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:59 pm

In the situation where the safety valve does not blow off through fault and the vehicle is on fire enough to heat the tank to failure then it can make one hell of a bang but as far as I know it has never happened.


Oh it most certainly has... both with vehicle fuel tanks and with gas cylinders carried on vehicles. I know of one incident where a gas cylinder explosion was recorded as breaking windows 2 miles away. Gas under pressure is not your friend... whether the gas is flammable or not.

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Re: Electric bikes

Postby Mjolinor » Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:46 pm

For sure it has happened with gas cylinders but I meant on normal LPG conversions. I have seen them go off like a bunsen burner but never seen one explode.

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Re: Electric bikes

Postby DEEP DIVER » Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:55 pm

For sure it has happened with gas cylinders but I meant on normal LPG conversions. I have seen them go off like a bunsen burner but never seen one explode.
At Heathrow airport in the freight warehouse we had 24 LPG forklift trucks. (This was over 20 years ago) There was a fire and the drivers left all the trucks inside the building and walked out. This was how their H&S rules. When the fire brigade turned up the fire chief had some strong words as there were now 24 LPG bombs inside a burning building. He would not allow any of his men inside till they had all burnt off.
I've worked with LPG for over 28 years and the cylinders can explode.

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