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inexperience and not reading road

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:33 pm
by windmill john
I just think this is all lack of experience.

Maybe bikes too big for the amount of experience.
Yes I can see the roadworks, they should have too.
Do these bikes not have ABS? Shouldn't rely on it anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZspR9Mj5uo



John

Re: inexperience and not reading road

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:27 pm
by Mjolinor
I have never ridden a bike with ABS and the thought of it worries me. I can't see how it can be effective as it must Shirley alter the intended line on a corner if it comes in unexpected.

I do tend to think that ABS is something for people that can not drive and cannot think of a single instance where it has come in on any of the cars I have driven since they started installing it other than once on ice where it was a total pain in the butt, like having no brakes at all.

Re: inexperience and not reading road

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:23 pm
by gogs01
.
Is there a connection between these two posts and the YouTube clip ?
I've watched the clip twice now and I can't see any connection between the two fallen bikes and either the road works or ABS brakes.
Roads like the Stelvio are a technical challenge, particularly for riders short on experience and confidence. If you don't take the best line on these hairpins it's like riding a trials section. Speed becomes very slow and balance becomes more and more difficult, going up or down.
The first faller was on a Ducati monster which is a slim, light bike and had no luggage. Rider error, I'm afraid. The second was on a GS loaded to capacity and if something like that becomes slightly off-balance it will fall over very quickly. Still rider error, but more difficult to avoid.
As for ABS, I learned my craft on bikes without ABS (or disc brakes actually) and over the years have ridden more and more bikes with ABS. I never think about it and I only had one bike which occasionally pulsed the rear brake when braking hard downhill for a sharp turn. That gave me no cause for concern and my more modern BMWs haven't ever signalled ABS activation. I do believe however that ABS is a positive safety device because, in a situation where it might cause a detrimental effect (corner, ice) the wheel would have locked without it and I would have been completely out of control. The one exception to that is in deep snow, where a car without ABS will "snow plough" and stop quicker than a car with ABS where the wheels will keep turning. Doesn't apply very well to motorcycles.

Re: inexperience and not reading road

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:45 pm
by Mjolinor
.
Is there a connection between these two posts and the YouTube clip ?
No. :)

Watched the clip and I agree, it is just riding inability, whether ABS played a part or not I have absolutely no idea.

Re: inexperience and not reading road

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:29 pm
by george baker
Hi
short on experience and confidence... Speed becomes very slow and balance becomes more and more difficult, going up or down.
That's me, I just never seem to understand what to do on hairpins, especially on the R, the K usually seems easier

I would welcome advice

George

Re: inexperience and not reading road

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:43 pm
by windmill john
gogs01 I only mentioned ABS to be... polite?

You want my real feelings? The two crashes are down to lack of experience. I’m not mocking them, but really..... they should have done a few years on smaller bikes. Obviously I don’t know their background, but I’d be pretty sure they haven’t spent years on bikes.
George, don’t see a hair pin, just see a tight corner that you need to reduce speed for.
It’s not the type of bend you lean over into; although you can. I could almost say it’s like manoeuvring a big bike in a car park, just needs care and attention.

I remember when my wife and I took my 850GS to a village above Lecco near Lake Como. Fully loaded, panniers. Top box, tank bag. You can tip the bike in, but you need to ensure you power out so the bike doesn’t tip.
As regards going downhill, again, it’s purely a case of reducing speed. I can only think those two riders grabbed a handful of brake. I’m assuming the second one caught some gravel or dust from the road works.

Re: inexperience and not reading road

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:38 am
by King Herald
Hi
short on experience and confidence... Speed becomes very slow and balance becomes more and more difficult, going up or down.
That's me, I just never seem to understand what to do on hairpins, especially on the R, the K usually seems easier

I would welcome advice.

George
All the gear, no idea. If you can’t stand a Ducati up on your own, you must be pretty feeble. I see no gravel,where they are, just incompetence, or bad luck.

I’ve done loads of passes like those, but you real challenge was going over the Umbrail pass into Italy from Switzerland last summer. It is REAL tight, 180 hairpins, with almost no radius, just turns back on itself,with almost no central ‘reservation. At first I thought I had gone up a one way road, wrong way, as cars and vans were coming down these super steep hairpins as I was trying to go up. :shock:

I dabbed my foot down once, nearly lost it in a full lock right hander, but just as I was about to give up I was passed by a group of super-motard riders who were hooning along. I followed them a bit and copied their style: head in as wide a radius as you can, then tuck in close as you go round the bend.

Left handlers down hill is easy, just ride the back brake and roll down wide and you have loads of room, right hand, up hill is the worst, keep well over to the left of your lane, plenty of revs in hand, slip the clutch if you need, and turn right, grab a quick glance to make sure,your path is clear, then swooping tight so you end up on the inside of the bend as you go round.

I use my clutch to smooth things out, and to pull out of the corner if the gear is a bit high, I don’t go on and off throttle, on a BM Oilhead that can be jerky and abrupt, and tragic.

Re: inexperience and not reading road

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:26 am
by gogs01
..... If you can’t stand a Ducati up on your own, you must be pretty feeble. I see no gravel where they are, just incompetence, or bad luck.

..... copied their style: head in as wide a radius as you can, then tuck in close as you go round the bend.

Left handlers down hill is easy, just ride the back brake and roll down wide and you have loads of room, right hand, up hill is the worst, keep well over to the left of your lane, plenty of revs in hand, slip the clutch if you need, and turn right, grab a quick glance to make sure,your path is clear, then swooping tight so you end up on the inside of the bend as you go round.

I use my clutch to smooth things out, and to pull out of the corner if the gear is a bit high, I don’t go on and off throttle, on a BM Oilhead that can be jerky and abrupt, and tragic.
.
I agree with all of that (although the Ducati Monster rider may have been female ..... :oops: )
I would add that assessing the bend and it's exit as you approach is important - if there's traffic coming from the opposite direction it may be wise to stop and let it clear - you don't want to meet anything on the bend and even on the exit you may be competing for space with a bike / car / camper van / luxury coach ..... 8-[
Planning and using the appropriate techniques are vital, along with looking as far ahead as possible at all times and being confident - you have to be determined that you can and WILL be successful, not worrying about how you're going to get the bike back on it's wheels after you've fallen over ! :smile:

Re: inexperience and not reading road

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:43 am
by windmill john
In this first one, his girlfriend is against the wall and he picks his bike up first! Lets ignore the fact I did something similar in Greece with a hired Scooter 40 years ago when we slipped off on some unloaded grapes!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT1ra9mI8r8

In this one, I think it is fear; and inexperience. Bike very heavy, probably first time on this sort of road.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4HNCslHMGg

Re: inexperience and not reading road

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:34 am
by Mjolinor
we slipped off on some unloaded grapes!
Unloaded from the bottle down your neck?

Re: inexperience and not reading road

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:49 am
by Mjolinor
I have never been on any of these roads on a bike. I went to Andorra in a mini some years ago and that had some pretty steep roads and hairpins. The thing is that they do not seem that sharp to me or that onerous. None of them seem anywhere near as tight or steep as these close to my home and they are not something I ever think about when I ride up and down them. What am I missing?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.74507 ... a=!3m1!1e3

The road up from Hebden Bridge is at least 50 degrees steep on the inside of the corner Most road bikes will not get up if you take the inside line.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.74612 ... 312!8i6656

Re: inexperience and not reading road

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:18 am
by windmill john
Yup, Hebden Bridge up to Heptonstall Slack; lovely.

These continental hairpins do need someone who is comfortable with their bike. There are tight bends, serious cambers steep, up or down. I sure there are experienced riders who would come off if they came to a stop in the middle of those tights ones because the ground would be quite away from your feet. But again, experience would tell you if you had to stop, you come to a stop with the outside foot on the floor. The bike could be 'leaning' at 45 degrees to the road. The bike would be upright actually, just 45 degrees to the tarmac.

Like a lot of situations, forward momentum is the answer.

Re: inexperience and not reading road

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:06 pm
by Jockboxer
A pretty quiet day on the Stelvio. When I was there, it was like the Lawnmarket before the Tattoo - chokka with tour buses. Plus cyclists, bikers, cars etc. We did it one way iirc, going over the unpaved pass on the other side and then back to Italy. As to the premise of the post, while not every accident is due to lack of experience, I'd bet my shirt on ALL of them, well 99%, being down to failing to read the road and anticipate what's likely to happen next. I'd say both the Ducati rider and the GS rider were relatively inexperienced and yes, the Duke rider was a she. The GS rider's gear looked brand new!

Re: inexperience and not reading road

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:09 pm
by windmill john
I remember going over the St. Gotthard Pass. We were going to Mandela De Lario, Guzzi World Day. The weather was awful, but still wanted to do the pass. Once we got up there we had no choice but to carry on. Visibility was zilch, rain lashing down. Still..... much better than the return when we came through the tunnel! No ventilation, choking on car fumes. I pushed up the speed very high just yo get out; even my wife was egging me on to get out of that tunnel.

Re: inexperience and not reading road

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:00 am
by King Herald
I remember going over the St. Gotthard Pass. We were going to Mandela De Lario, Guzzi World Day. The weather was awful, but still wanted to do the pass. Once we got up there we had no choice but to carry on. Visibility was zilch, rain lashing down. Still..... much better than the return when we came through the tunnel! No ventilation, choking on car fumes. I pushed up the speed very high just yo get out; even my wife was egging me on to get out of that tunnel.
I plan to ride the Tremola one of these years, the old cobbled road over the Gotthard. I set out down it a couple of years ago on my overloaded top heavy BM, but it was as bumpy as hell and I could see bits falling off my bike if I carried on, plus I was alone and a little nervous. So I turned round and went down the easy way. :oops:

I passed down the Stelvio last year, it was packed, midday, summer holidays, it was like Blackpool sea front. :shock:

Re: inexperience and not reading road

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:09 am
by King Herald
I have never been on any of these roads on a bike. I went to Andorra in a mini some years ago and that had some pretty steep roads and hairpins. The thing is that they do not seem that sharp to me or that onerous. None of them seem anywhere near as tight or steep as these close to my home and they are not something I ever think about when I ride up and down them. What am I missing?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.74507 ... a=!3m1!1e3

The road up from Hebden Bridge is at least 50 degrees steep on the inside of the corner Most road bikes will not get up if you take the inside line.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.74612 ... 312!8i6656


The first part of the Umbrail pass is much like that street view bend you posted, but like you say, you can’t take it on the inside line, so you have to swing wide onto the wrong side, and you can’t see what is coming down towards you, because it is basically over your shoulder, with trees and growth obscuring your chance to glance at the situation. A newbie would be pretty scared and rigid, trying to get up it, as I know I was and I’ve done plenty of tight roads.

https://goo.gl/maps/53ACBTdkRUDHaKj46

Re: inexperience and not reading road

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:27 am
by CharlieVictor
Unfortunately the "motorcycle tour" scene has become exactly that: people buying 40 grand worth of bike and equipment, and with hardly any riding experience beyond their riding licence, going into long distance travelling.

Lots of them stopping by my regular joint since July... Old farts on shiny brand new Indians or "Advenchure bikes", usually GS or Tigers, licence plate number indicating the bike was plated last month... Easy to spot as they paddle to make a U turn, can hardly use the center stand, and generally show a frightful lack of knowledge and mastery of their steed. :neutral:

Re: inexperience and not reading road

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:20 pm
by windmill john
Yes I watch people’s paddling as a benchmark for experience. Used to go to Wessons cafe. Lots of bikers would turn up and I would, sadly, watch who put both feet down when they arrived on their way to find a space.

Re: inexperience and not reading road

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:35 pm
by Mjolinor
Yes I watch people’s paddling as a benchmark for experience. Used to go to Wessons cafe. Lots of bikers would turn up and I would, sadly, watch who put both feet down when they arrived on their way to find a space.
I find myself doing it on the BMW, even after two years I cannot get used to that kick when you blip the throttle. I could solve it by tweaking the tickover but the problem is the bike rarely goes more than 5 miles at a time so if I set tickover for that sort of use then when I do 10 miles it revs too high so I have it set so the tickover is too low most of the time so I need to blip the throttle to stop it stalling.

It's called the "personality" of the bike.

Ladas and Skodas used to have a lot of personality.