Millions of EV electric batteries

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DEEP DIVER
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Millions of EV electric batteries

Postby DEEP DIVER » Sun May 23, 2021 3:13 pm

I tried to be normal once, worst two minutes of my life.
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Re: Millions of EV electric batteries

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Mon May 24, 2021 9:51 am

Yup, Electric vehicles are most certainly not a silver bullet when it comes to pollution of all sorts. This is only one of the problems that they will bring and for a very dubious advantage in terms of the dreaded 'Carbon Footprint'.

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Re: Millions of EV electric batteries

Postby levrier noir » Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:40 am

I got into a discussion recently with someone on a forum on this.
He waxed lyrically about how lithium will be recycled and how contracts are in place to use it for powering other things.
So my question was how many times can lithium be recycled.
Not forever surely.
Eventually its going to end up in landfill.
He went quiet after that.
If this is the direction we're going in then in the longer term we will have an ecological catastrophe as lithium can't be incinerated, meaning we'll most likely bin it in the same third world countries who we send our washing machines and TVs to.
I think we're being sold a lie.

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Re: Millions of EV electric batteries

Postby Jaythro » Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:52 am

think we're being sold a lie
.

I agree 100%!!

Its another 21st century Pied Piper or Emperors new clothes fable

Where people are fed titbits of the real stories and then they run with it "hysterically"

Wind turbines are another red herring £100K for an average sized one and on a still air day it can do nothing

Why did they not look into Hydro as a means of slowing down flood waters or more importantly Tidal energy

Well basically it does not scream I am saving the planet over here look at me !!!

The only people that can afford a wind generator or solar panels are people with enough spare money to invest in them Lord forbid that families in housing estates should get a go at being able to afford them and sadly that is the next sad comment They also cannot afford the EV transport either

My 15 year old Touran does everything I need and its carbon footprint reduces Year on year and while it sits parked it has no environmental impact

The whole thing is a badly thought out "Trend" there should be concessions for folks keeping well maintained older vehicles on the road!! Rather than punishment!
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Re: Millions of EV electric batteries

Postby Jockboxer » Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:57 am

There's no point at all in simply applying our old economic model to tackling climate change. We'll need to adopt a similar approach to that which existed during WW2: less waste, more recycling and greater self sufficiency. If climate change disrupts existing trade patterns over the next 50 years then we'll have little choice. Meanwhile, there's more concern about the price of turkeys this Christmas!

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Re: Millions of EV electric batteries

Postby Jaythro » Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:33 am

Actually The Millennial society is likely to drag down the planet! Someone made a post on facebook a while back about how it was when we were young ...

I am talking 70's for me for instance .....No central heating so more blankets and a hot water bottle was the answer to a freezing night!
One where you would wake up in the morning to see your single glazed window with frozen droplets on the inside!

These days its hit the button on the timer for Hot water for Heating etc etc Latest new phone Latest Trainers Latest Influencer from instagram's clothing etc etc The list goes on and when they go out of trend ??? They are dispose of into the trash
When I were a lad you wore it till it was worn out and you didn't get new till whatever it was, was completely done and worn out

What the actual reality of the situation is? What ever changes we make, they are totally Minor in comparison to the pollution emanating from China India Russia and to be honest the middle east AND America If they were to have a magic cure to double gas mileage that would make a huge change to Climate issues

When I was in Iran in 1999 and 2000 the national car was a Paykan originally the Hillman Hunter they used a 2 litre version which was still carburated Tehran was the 4th most polluted city in the world back then Despite the fact that they banned trucks from the city between 8 p.m. and 6 a.m.

What I am saying is that we are being forced into a situation where UK / EU are leading in pollution reduction and the rest of the World basically nod and agree but do nothing

It has been shown that with the Grounding of aircraft with the Icelandic eruption some years ago a marked increase in air quality was shown!
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Re: Millions of EV electric batteries

Postby windmill john » Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:50 pm

One thing I've thought for years which does not fit in with the economic model, is I think flying should be more expensive.

The airlines still make as much money but fewer flights.

An overseas holiday is not a god given right.
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Re: Millions of EV electric batteries

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:56 pm

One thing I've thought for years which does not fit in with the economic model, is I think flying should be more expensive.

The airlines still make as much money but fewer flights.

An overseas holiday is not a god given right.

I agree... but... I think you'll have a lot of difficulty getting that one past the populace in general...

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Re: Millions of EV electric batteries

Postby R90S » Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:37 am

One thing I've thought for years which does not fit in with the economic model, is I think flying should be more expensive.

The airlines still make as much money but fewer flights.

An overseas holiday is not a god given right.
Aviation fuel is not taxed, which is why it costs pennies to fly. How can it cost £50 to fly to Lisbon when it costs me £50 in fuel to get to Kent and back (or a quote of £240 to get to the NEC for the Motorcycle show on a train)?

I do think we should be limited. We used to take one return flight per year for our annual holiday in the sunshine, now people are flying most weekends. I turned up at Leeds to go to Dublin on a work trip and when the flight was called loads of foreign youngsters appeared. They had flown Ryanscare from all corners of Europe, via other airports in some cases, to get to Dublin cheaply. Note the word 'youngsters'. The ones complaining about climate change... don't get me started...

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Re: Millions of EV electric batteries

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:12 pm

It's an interetsing thing that a firm calle 'Lumo' have just started a new train service from London to Edinburgh with tickets between £15.00 and £30.00... priced to compete with the airlines(?)... Nobopdy seems to ask how they can do it at the price... and why all of the other train providers can't.

I'm sure it make sense to someone... but not to me :roll:

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Re: Millions of EV electric batteries

Postby R90S » Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:41 pm

Look it up on their website. They stop at Newcastle and Morpeth. I tried to book a ticket from Morpeth to London. No difference between Lumo and Lner, Lumo have very few services.
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Re: Millions of EV electric batteries

Postby John Marshall » Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:11 am

Whether or not the fact that winter is not as harsh as before is due to human activity I cannot tell. The earth has had periods with high CO2 and warm temperatures in the past.
When I lived in Wiltshire we had somewhat exceptionally perhaps -17 C once.
So cold you had to go up the pub! Motorcycling hell too.Nowadays I have bananas in the garden over 5-6 m tall, runner beans that regrow form the roots, and frequently pelargoniums tat last for years.OK so this is in Devon but it has definitely changed.
I shall have to rely on my pushbike for transport.

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Re: Millions of EV electric batteries

Postby CharlieVictor » Sun Oct 31, 2021 5:30 pm

One thing I've thought for years which does not fit in with the economic model, is I think flying should be more expensive.

The airlines still make as much money but fewer flights.

An overseas holiday is not a god given right.
Aviation fuel is not taxed, which is why it costs pennies to fly. How can it cost £50 to fly to Lisbon when it costs me £50 in fuel to get to Kent and back (or a quote of £240 to get to the NEC for the Motorcycle show on a train)?

I do think we should be limited. We used to take one return flight per year for our annual holiday in the sunshine, now people are flying most weekends. I turned up at Leeds to go to Dublin on a work trip and when the flight was called loads of foreign youngsters appeared. They had flown Ryanscare from all corners of Europe, via other airports in some cases, to get to Dublin cheaply. Note the word 'youngsters'. The ones complaining about climate change... don't get me started...
Aviation fuel is not taxed because it's impossible to figure out which fuel is destined to flights bound out country from fuel destined to domestic flights. Or so we are told.
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Re: Millions of EV electric batteries

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:24 pm


Aviation fuel is not taxed because it's impossible to figure out which fuel is destined to flights bound out country from fuel destined to domestic flights. Or so we are told.
That would be easy enough to get round... just tax at point of sale. If I put petrol in my vehicle at Dover then drive through four other countries, I don't pay five bands of tax. If the airline doesn't want to pay your tax, then they'd better be really sure they have enough fuel to get home...

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Re: Millions of EV electric batteries

Postby levrier noir » Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:58 pm

I watched an interview with Bill Nye the science guy.
He's a kids TV entertainer and was being interviewed by Tucker Carlson.
He put forward as evidence for man made climate change the fact that Britain now has a viable climate for wine grapes which he claimed it hasn't had before.
I'm not sure if he was lying, or genuinely ignorant but it was actually the ancient Romans who introduced the wine grape to Britain where they had thriving vineyards due to its ideal climate.
In fact there is some evidence to suggest that the history of wine grapes here goes back even further.
I fear that a lot of the climate hysteria rhetoric being put forward is dependent on people having very short memories, or being too lazy to research the facts for themselves

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Re: Millions of EV electric batteries

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Sat Nov 06, 2021 11:25 am

You're right, the Romans did grow wine in britain but it is also probably true that the vineyards failed due to a different type of climate change in the dark ages and the medieval period that led to the british climate becoming much colder and less suitable for viniculture. This led to the adoption of beers and ales as a substitute means of making water drinkable. Viniculture is still marginal in much of the UK and as a result almost all UK vineyards are clustered in the South and Midlands of England. How much of this is due to climate and how much to inertia in society and the drinks industry is another matter. Climate change happens all of the time and I have some sympathy for the stance that the 'exceptional weather events' that we are regaled with are not as exceptional as the pundits would like us to believe.

Part of the problem is that scientists are pretty much conditioned to reject any evidence that isn't completely objective... i.e. fact, figures, dates and times... and this type of information is not available for events that happened a long time ago. Objective data only really becomes available from about the start of the twentieth century and universal worldwide objective data has only become available over the last twenty or thirty years. When the papers gleefully state this is the worst, the hottest, the coldest, the whateverest since records began, they are often quoting only the last few decades. When they say it's the second worst, hottest (all right you get the picture) they are actually saying it's been worse. Individual events don't define a trend.

Things, however, become much easier to evaluate over the last half century and it is becoming almost impossible to deny that human activity... princip-ally the result of emissions of green house gasses... is at least partly to blame for the current overall increase in global temperatures. If this is true, then it seems clear that the ongoing increase in emissions and reduction of natural cleansing and storage systems (forests, peat bogs & etc.) is most certainly not something that we should be ignoring.

I am as sceptical as the next man and I don't think this latest political circus will achieve much, nor I suspect, is the human race capable of reaching the targets proposed ... in a way, I hope I'm wrong...but, all in all, I think we need, as a race, to be taking the situation seriously.

Personally, I would like to see more prominence given to methods of actually removing greenhouse gasses from the atmosphere and storing the problematic elements (notably carbon), such methods should not be beyond the technological ability of the race, but unfortunately, the whole movement seems to have fallen into the hands of the anti-tech brigade so any investment in such a solution seems unlikely.

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Re: Millions of EV electric batteries

Postby R90S » Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:15 pm

The whole thing is predicated on bashing the humble end user. Airlines can fly with impunity, lorries can drive around in diesel-engined vehicles, ships can bring cheap crap from China, but the finger is pointed at me for daring to ride a dirty motorcycle. As JCB now have a viable hydrogen powered internal combustion engine and are buying clean hydrogen surely we are on the path to redemption? Except, the Government is not investing in clean hydrogen or a distribution network.

If we look at a bit of recent history, the diesel engine was encouraged because it had lower CO2 emissions than a petrol engine. The rest of the crap coming out the back was ignored. NOx is a serious problem and produced in bucket loads by diesel (and jet) engines. It goes to show that the problem lies with the politicians and their advisors. Whatever happens, any pollution tax will be passed on to the consumer. There is no thing as taxing the companies. We all pay. Make it, grow it and sell it local would be a good start. Those advocating the immediate suspension of fossil fuel extraction are deluded. They would instantly wreck the world economy and we would starve. The diesel engine is, unfortunately, the driver of the world economy.

As we now enjoy personal mobility and the freedom it brings I think it would be a foolish Government that thinks it can remove that from people without a viable, similar priced alternative.
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Re: Millions of EV electric batteries

Postby levrier noir » Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:54 pm

Forgive me for digressing a little but this guy puts it very well.
Some language maybe unsuitable for small children

https://youtu.be/NFftQwHUyOg

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Re: Millions of EV electric batteries

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:39 am

The whole thing is predicated on bashing the humble end user. Airlines can fly with impunity, lorries can drive around in diesel-engined vehicles, ships can bring cheap crap from China, but the finger is pointed at me for daring to ride a dirty motorcycle. As JCB now have a viable hydrogen powered internal combustion engine and are buying clean hydrogen surely we are on the path to redemption? Except, the Government is not investing in clean hydrogen or a distribution network.

If we look at a bit of recent history, the diesel engine was encouraged because it had lower CO2 emissions than a petrol engine. The rest of the crap coming out the back was ignored. NOx is a serious problem and produced in bucket loads by diesel (and jet) engines. It goes to show that the problem lies with the politicians and their advisors. Whatever happens, any pollution tax will be passed on to the consumer. There is no thing as taxing the companies. We all pay. Make it, grow it and sell it local would be a good start. Those advocating the immediate suspension of fossil fuel extraction are deluded. They would instantly wreck the world economy and we would starve. The diesel engine is, unfortunately, the driver of the world economy.

As we now enjoy personal mobility and the freedom it brings I think it would be a foolish Government that thinks it can remove that from people without a viable, similar priced alternative.
I think there are many true points in what you say but there are certain things you seem to be missing. Hydrogen power for IC engines has been around since at least the 1960s... it isn't impossible but will never become viable, not particularly because of problems as such but mainly because it has been overtaken by the hydrogen fuel cell which also uses hydrogen, also emits only water vapour and is a whole lot more efficient. Unfortunately, while there are quite a large number of fuel cell powered vehicles coming on to the market... mainly commercial at the moment... the sticking point is the production of the gas. Most hydrogen is currently produced from (you guessed it) natural gas, oil and coal. Only a very small percentage (I've seen 4% quoted) is produced by electrolysis (i.e. green hydrogen). Electrolysis is ruinously ineficient and hydrogen produced from other sources doesn't address the current issues.

What is needed is work on the production, storage and transport of hydrogen gas... work that is being done but still has some way to go.

Personaly, I think Hydrogen definitely has a part to play in the provision of transport and other energy but not driving IC engines. I would love to see a conversion kit allowing current IC engines to run on Hydrogen as it does become available... (I really don't want to see my beloved airheads put to sleep) but I fear the 'classic/vintage' market is far to small to command the resources neede to make it viable... (please may I be proven wrong :smile: )

One thing I am sure of is that, while pure electric vehicles supply (or appear to supply) a quick and cost effective solution to the emmisions problem, the government finance of hydrogen power will be limited.

Rob
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Re: Millions of EV electric batteries

Postby R90S » Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:34 pm

And now we have the an industry boss saying that a battery electric vehicle has a 70%greater environmental impact than a petrol car and Volvo say that it's electric V40 takes about 85,000 miles to be cleaner than its petrol engine V40.

Let us not forget that Diesel cars were the answer...

I understand clean vehicles in cities etc but we need to understand the total environmental cost
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Re: Millions of EV electric batteries

Postby DEEP DIVER » Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:43 pm

And now we have the an industry boss saying that a battery electric vehicle has a 70%greater environmental impact than a petrol car and Volvo say that it's electric V40 takes about 85,000 miles to be cleaner than its petrol engine V40.

Let us not forget that Diesel cars were the answer...

I understand clean vehicles in cities etc but we need to understand the total environmental cost
And also the cost of all the jobs lost at small companies who make spares not required, radiators, waterpumps, fan belts, exhausts etc.
I tried to be normal once, worst two minutes of my life.
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Barry the old goat!!!!
1985 R80ST being rebuilt #-o
1985 R80RT Touring dream sold
2 Harley sportsters being rebuilt #-o
And a VW trike so I don't fall off :shock:


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