Indicators flashing double time. Urgent.

[King Herald]

I’m off to France in two days, but noticed today my indicators have started to flash at twice normal speed sometimes. Engine running or not, it makes no difference, happens at random.

1997 1100r

It happens on both sides, yet all bulbs are working, no dead bulbs. Sometimes it doesn’t do it, sometimes it does.

Hazard warning lights work normally.

Off to the garage now to check the flasher unit, look at wires etc.

[Jaythro]

I think that is the same flasher unit as the K 100 / K1100

If you can scoosh each bulb holder with ACF 50 in case its a higher resistance connection and double check the connections on the base of the flasher unit central row right hand side If I recall correctly but the illustrious Ced (Galactic Greyhound will be sure to know as his bike is basically the same)

[windmill john]

Well King Herald, I’ve been doing so badly with my answers on the Airhead section this week, let’s carry on!

If it is not a dodgy connection/corrosion in the wiring/connections, I would say the flasher unit. I await to be chastised again.
I’m source one of the guys knows how to test the flasher relay.

[Jaythro]

Relay number 61317679867

For fitment list Click Here

[milleplod]

In stock at Motorworks I think. Not a million miles from you either, but if you're short of time and need a Pony Express-type hand picking up and relaying (see what I did there.... ) the part, give me a shout...any excuse for a run out!

Pete

[King Herald]

Thanks for the ideas, I’ve been in the shed and checked connections cleaned bulbs etc, nothing looks corroded, dirty or ripped up. I can’t duplicate the fault either now, it simply doesn’t want to do it. Heat related?

The flasher unit, £121 for a new one from Motorworks?? A bloody flasher??

They are about £3 to buy a generic flasher unit for a car, so exactly how does the BMW one differ from one of them?

I have the rear wheel out of the bike for a new tyre at the moment, should be fitted tomorrow. Plus I’ve just bought a new tent, panniers, travel insurance etc. I fear I may resort to hand signals if necessary, I really don’t want to be laying out £120+ until I am sure it is the flasher, and/or it has died altogether.

[Galactic Greyhound]

If your R1100R uses the same Turn Signal/Hazard relay as my R1100RT (I think that this is likely) then it is a quite sophisticated plug-in electronic relay which bears no similarity the usual Indicator Relays.

The double-speed flashing appears to indicate that there may be a high resistance +12v supply to the Indicator Relay on pin 1 (15A4, Green/Brown wire) or pin 2 (30A3, Red/White wire - there are therefore TWO +12v feeds to the Indicator Relay because it controls both the Indicators and the Hazard circuit.
Check the Fuses that supply these +12v feeds for corrosion/poor contact, on the R1100RT it is Fuse 4 and Fuse 3 respectively but your R1100R may use different fuse numbers.
If the Hazards work normally then I would suspect a problem with Fuse 4, the Indicator supply.

Even if you cannot find the fault in time, if the Indicators keep working at double-speed then at least you are indicating so I would not worry too much!

The quickest way to find if it is the Turn Signal relay at fault is to replace the relay from another bike if you have anyone nearby.
Maybe Motorworks will let you try a used/new one to verify if yours is faulty or not.
NOTE the relay is locked into the socket and need to be unlatched - care needs to be taken when removing it - see the Turn Signal Relay Pinout diagram for detailed removal instructions.


Oilhead Turn Signal Faulting

If you have a Haynes or a Clymer Manual for your bike, then look at the Wiring Diagram/Turn Signal Relay and Handlebar Switches.
If you don't have the above, then download Doug Raymond's Wiring Diagram for the R1100RT which will let you see how the Turn Signal Relay operates - here is the link:
http://www.mac-pac.org/tech/electrical-diagrams/

Looking at the Wiring Diagram (on P3 of 3 of Doug's diagram) , you will see that the LH, RH, Hazard and Cancel switches operate by sending an earth to the appropriate terminal of the Turn Indicator Relay.

It could be a wiring, fuse or relay fault that is causing the problem.

I'm assuming that on the R1100R, the LH Turn, Horn and Hazard Switches are on the LH grip and the RH Turn and Cancel switches are on the RH grip? Correct me if I am wrong with this assumption as it will affect the testing.

CAUTION: The following testing is done on the SOCKET for the Turn Signal Indicator Relay which is fitted inside the Fusebox.
Note that the Turn Signal Indicator Relay LATCHES into this socket which is loosely attached to the main wiring loom and the relay MUST be detached from the socket in accordance with the procedure given in the 'Turn Signal Socket Pinout diagram below to avoid damage.

1. Disconnect the Battery negative (earth) terminal.
2. Detach the Turn Signal Indicator Relay from its socket (see CAUTION above).
3. Re-connect the Battery negative (earth) terminal.
4. Check for +12v on the Turn Signal Socket pin #2 (Red wire) [Ignition Off].
5. Switch Ignition On.
6. Check for +12v on the Turn Signal Socket pin #1 (Green/brown wire).
7. Check for earth on the Turn Signal Socket pin #7 (Brown wire).

CAUTION: Be careful - you are now going to be jumpering a live +12v power feed - avoid shorting to earth or any other pins!
DON'T damage the socket pins by using too big a wire for jumpering!

8. Jumper socket pin #1 (Green/brown wire) to pin #12 (Blue/red wire) - the LH front and rear Indicators and the dash LH Indicator Warning Light should illuminate without flashing.
9. Jumper socket pin #1 (Green/brown wire) to pin #6 (Blue/black wire) - the RH front and rear Indicators and the dash RH Indicator Warning Light should illuminate without flashing.

10. Switch Ignition Off.
11. Using a Test Lamp or an Ohmmeter, check for the presence of an earth on the following socket pins - NO earth should be seen:
a. Pin #3, Blue/black wire, terminal #TL, LH Turn switch.
b. Pin #5, Yellow/violet wire, terminal #WBT, Hazard Warning switch.
c. Pin #4, White/brown wire, terminal #TA, Turn Cancel switch.
d. Pin #8, Blue/yellow wire, terminal #TR, RH Turn switch.

12. Now, repeat 11 above again but this time OPERATE each switch as you test it for an earth. You should see the Test Lamp/Ohmmeter show continuity as you press the switch thus proving the switch is working OK and it is sending an earth to the Turn Signal Relay.


TURN SIGNAL SOCKET PINOUT DIAGRAM
Click to Enlarge/Save As

Turn Signal Socket Pinout.jpg

[King Herald]

Thanks for the detailed reply Ced. It definitely looks like this flasher is more than your average car flasher.

And yes, my turn buttons are one on each handlebar, and cancel on the right.

I shall leave any testing until I get back from my travels, lest I fry something or the flashers pack up altogether after my fumblings.

[Galactic Greyhound]

Might be worth checking the Indicators and Hazard fuses (Fuses 4 & 3) for bad connection/corrosion - you can't do much wrong with that!
The Indicator Fuse 4 is fed from the Load Relief Relay Make contact so if this relay contact is dodgy it may cause a high resistance in the Indicator Turn Relay power feed [Turn Relay Pin 1 15A4] and so affect the flash rate.
I have checked that Fuse 4 is indeed used for the Indicators and Fuse 3 [Turn Relay Pin 2 30A3] is used for the Hazard circuit on the R1100R in a Haynes R1100R Wiring Diagram.

The Load Relief Relay Make contact also supplies the Headlight Main/Dip and the Horn so if you get any problems occurring there suspect the Load Relief Relay.
The Load Relief Relay operates when the Ignition is On but releases (and so cuts off Headlamp, Horn, Indicators etc) when the Starter Button is pressed to reduce the battery load when starting.

It may also be dirty/corroded pins 1 and/or 2 in the Turn Signal Relay or Relay socket and unplugging and refitting may clean that up.

If you don't want to touch anything in case it fails, then print out the 'Turn Signal Relay Pinout' diagram and take it with you in case of failure on the road.
The diagram notes explain how to unplug the Turn Signal Relay.

Have a good trip!

[King Herald]

I have to admit, I don’t have a proper manual for this bike. I always come to the internet when I need information. (I know I should get one, Common Sense really)

This is the fuse box layout I am looking at, does it seem correct?

25518C25-1C3E-4778-A308-19EA62E28C7C.jpeg

[King Herald]

I’ve checked all fuses, fuse holders etc, not a sign of corrosion at all.

[Galactic Greyhound]

This is the fuse box layout I am looking at, does it seem correct?

Yes, it looks OK.
I checked the Fuse allocations against the R1100R Haynes Wiring Diagram.

I’ve checked all fuses, fuse holders etc, not a sign of corrosion at all.

That's good - it is therefore likely that there is a corroded connection in the Turn Signal Relay socket or the Turn Signal relay pins.
If the Turn Signal relay is unplugged and reinserted into the socket then this may clear any corrosion on the socket/pins.
NOTE: The relay is LATCHED in position and needs to be unlatched before it can be removed from the floating (loose wired) socket it is plugged into. See the 'TURN SIGNAL SOCKET PINOUT DIAGRAM' posted earlier for the procedure on unlatching/latching the Turn Signal/Hazard Relay.

If it is working OK you may wish to leave it alone until the fault re-occurs when you can then try the unplugging procedure above.
A squirt of WD40 or Contact Cleaner would not go amiss either.

[King Herald]

I took the flasher out Ced, and give it a squirt with carb cleaner and WD40, no signs of corrosion, dirt or damage, unfortunately. Interesting catch mechanism, sort of a cam release device.

I shall wait and see what develops. It may be heat related, because yesterday was the first time I have been out two-up in this hot weather, during the middle of the day. And that was when the fault really started to occur repeatedly.

[Galactic Greyhound]

Yes, it's quite possible high temp could cause this problem to the all electronic relay.
I don't know what the temp operating spec is.

At least you have eliminated corroded fuses and relay pins/sockets.

It doesn't leave much other than the relay earth return circuit or a faulty relay itself.
If it happens again, check out both the +12v feeds and earth at the socket (with the relay unplugged) as per the Turn Signal Testing procedure posted previously but use a Test Lamp with a 21W bulb so that a high current is drawn and anything dodgy will show up as reduced brightness compared with when the Test Lamp is connected directly across the battery.

NOTE: A Voltmeter alone will read 12v whether or not there is a high resistance in the circuit because it draws virtually no current and the circuit is not under load (not drawing current) so the Voltmeter is useless unless it is used in conjunction across the Test Lamp to obtain a more accurate voltage measurement reference than just the brightness and where the Test Lamp provides the load for the circuit.

USING A TEST LAMP

For electrical testing on your bike all you need is a simple 12v Test Lamp. Make this up from a 12v bulb in a holder with each of the two leads about 1 metre long with large croc clips either end.
Use a filament (NOT LED) bulb between 10 and 21 Watts in the holder. You can clip a small screwdriver to one of the leads to use as a probe.

The Test Lamp is used as follows:
1. Connect the test lamp across the battery terminals - the Test Lamp should light which proves that the battery is charged and the lamp is working.
Note what the FULL brightness of the Test Lamp looks like when connected across the battery terminals - the brightness level can be used to determine faults if the brightness is not at maximum.

2. To test for +12v (Live) - disconnect the Test Lamp lead from the battery +12v (positive live) terminal, the Test Lamp will go out - it will light up again when you tap that lead onto a point which is at +12v (Live).

3. To test for -12v (Earth/Ground) - disconnect the Test Lamp lead from the battery -12v (negative earth/ground) terminal, the Test Lamp will go out - it will light up again when you tap that lead onto a point which is at -12v (Earth/Ground).

4. Summary:
To Probe for +12v, clip to the -12v (Battery Negative terminal).
To Probe for -12v (earth), clip to the +12v (Battery Positive terminal).


Note: Electrical wiring products including wire by the metre length can be obtained online from:
Vehicle Wiring Products http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/

[King Herald]

Thanks again for the comprehensive info Ced, I will investigate fully at a later date.

[King Herald]

So, 2600 miles across Europe, with nary a problem. I’m assuming it was some sort of connection problem, earth leak, whatever, that I cured when cleaning plugs and fuses etc. Fingers crossed it stays gone.

[Galactic Greyhound]

Thanks for the update - fingers crossed!

[Brickboy]

I bet it was remaking the relay connection just by removing it that fixed it. I'e done that on loads of bikes. Why BM need a super complex indicator system is one of the great Bavarian mysteries :)

Simon

[King Herald]

Unfortunatly, the problem has returned now a month later. It started after the dip beam blew, and then I fitted a new bulb and later noticed the indicators playing their game, every time they were used with the headlight on. Turn off headlight, blinkers work perfect.

I’ve just been out and checked voltages and grounds, as described earlier by aced, with meter and test lamp, all seems good, everything works as it should.

I have measured the battery reads 12.6 volts when standing, which rises to 13.9 at idle. It drops .3 volts when headlights are switched on.

This was measured at the #1 socket in the flasher socket.

I shall proceed to disconnect and clean as many contacts and plugs as I can find. Other that that, I’m stumped.

[Galactic Greyhound]

To check that there is nothing wrong with the +12v supply to the Flasher Unit (Socket pin #1 Green/Blue? wire) and with the L & R Indicator circuits, you might check the following (refer to previously posted Indicator Relay diagram for relay removal and socket pinout Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:20 pm):

1. Disconnect the Flasher Indicator Relay so that you have access to its socket connector (see previous instructions in this thread on how to remove the relay).

2. Using a suitable short length of insulated wire which will fit into the socket pins without damaging them, connect pin #1 (+12v @ Ignition On, Green/Blue wire 15A4) to pin #6 (RH Indicators, Blue/Black wire R).

3. Switch the Ignition ON - both RH Indicators should light FULLY but without flashing.

4. Switch the Ignition OFF.

5. Using a suitable short length of insulated wire which will fit into the socket pins without damaging them, connect pin #1 (+12v @ Ignition On, Green/Blue wire 15A4) to pin #12 (LH Indicators, Blue/Red wire L).

6. Switch the Ignition ON - both LH Indicators should light FULLY but without flashing.

7. If both the RH & LH Indicators light FULLY in the above tests then it would appear that the fault lies within the Indicator Relay itself.
Check that there are no damaged pins on the relay or the socket (i.e. female pin opened up excessively and not gripping the male pin tightly - if BOTH R & L Indicator sides are flashing too fast then the problem may be with the pin/socket #1 - if only one side is flashing too fast then the problem may be with the pin/socket #6 or #12 as appropriate).

[King Herald]

Okay thanks Ced, I’ll look into that if current surgery doesn’t change anything.

I have the tank off, looking at the mess underneath. I remember this from when I got the bike last year. Wiring looks solid enough, but loads of connectors, and lots of rotted sheathing. The battery earth lead has also been extended for some reason (maybe the replacement battery is taller) by bolting on another length. Looks solid electrically, but a mess. I can’t work out where the other end goes, or how to get to it without removing the air box.

The motor turns over well enough when starting, so I think there is a good solid earth to the battery.

I’m now opening and cleaning any and all electrical connectors, of which there are dozens. Any recommendations for contact cleaner sprays? I currently only have brake/carb cleaner, and WD40.

[Galactic Greyhound]

Hi KH,

I use Halfords for all my spray cleaners such as Contact Cleaner, Brake Cleaner, Carb Cleaner etc.

You can get all your other electrical needs including coloured wire by the metre and cloth Vehicle Wiring Harness Tape etc from:
http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/

The Battery Negative main earth wire on my R1100RT goes to the main earth connection on top of the gearbox which IIRC is just under either the Battery Cage or the ABS2 Modulator on the LH side:

Click to Enlarge/Save As

Main earth.jpg

Now, you are giving yourself a LOT of possibly unnecessary work by disconnecting and cleaning all the connectors you can find.
The primary task is to find out what is causing the intermittent indicator high-speed flashing.
The Battery and Main Earth is unlikely to be the cause of this as the Starter Motor would not function correctly if there were problems in this area.

Carry out the tests I posted today on Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:29 pm and this will likely reveal where the problem lies - you don't need to put the tank back on to do this so carry on with what other maintenance is required while it is off e.g. fuel filter.
Fuel Filter replacement: Order up 'HOSE CLAMP, 13mm RE-USABLE - QTY. 8, Motorworks Part Number COA60928 to replace all the Oetiker Clips used on the fuel hoses inside and outside of the tank - https://www.motorworks.co.uk/vlive/Shop ... rch=SEARCH.
Also a new 'O-RING, FUEL TANK PLATE', QTY. 1, Motorworks Part Number TAA41008 - https://www.motorworks.co.uk/vlive/Shop ... rch=SEARCH

While the tank is off, you can do maintenance on the rotting harness tape/sleeving by removing it and replacing it with new harness tape, braided sleeving, twistwrap sleeving, woven heat shrink sleeving and/or heat shrink sleeving as appropriate.
Note that where you have connectors at the end of a harness you may have difficulty trying to wrap new harness tape due to insufficient space. In this case, you can use Twistwrap sleeving to cover the wires.
You can see and order the requirement from Vehicle Wiring Products at the link above.

It is important to keep the harness wires covered with tape or sleeving or they can abrade against the frame and be a fire risk.
Fire resistant harness tape can also help to stop an electrical fire spreading along the harness.

[King Herald]

I think I will just wrap the harness as best I can and do the tests you suggest Ced. I have yet to actually find any corroded or damaged connections in the ones I have opened, or anywhere in fact.

The piccies don’t really show just how scruffy it all looks.

[Galactic Greyhound]

That's fine!

My harness looked just as bad or even worse as its a 1996 R1100RT and the original Harness Tape was just rotted everywhere.

If you can get new tape/sleeving from Vehicle Wiring Products it makes such a difference to the appearance and safety of the harness.
Remove any non-original PVC tape you find and replace with proper cloth Harness Tape or appropriate sleeving and you will be pleased with the result.

[King Herald]

Everything reassembled, tidied up, wires sorted out neatly, connections cleaned, all lights removed and connections cleaned. 40 mile test ride tonight and everything seems okay, flashers work perfectly with headlights on or off.

Thing is, I found nothing wrong when I had it all apart, so no idea if I have fixed anything.

I have ordered some better harness wrap, just used some cheap plastic tubular stuff I bought years ago for now.

It has been mentioned that bad earths can cause this sort of problem, so maybe I will focus on that if the problem reappears. I did find one brown wire that appeared out of the harness and was screwed onto the left side of the Motronica mounting frame, onto painted metal. I removed that, sanded it to bare metal and reattached.